Joined up thinking: linking data, process & customer experience – [FULL INTERVIEW]

Guy Statter from Qualco discusses some of the themes around where we go next within Credit and Collections processes.

It is a troubling time with inflation and an increasing cost of living, and we are likely to see higher volumes and digital servicing has a part to play in helping customers… to do this well is about seamlessly linking customer journey elements and services together…. with new technology around the corner (and data) it is allowing this to be customized to ever greater levels offering more targeted support…. the customer experience is important.

Find out more about Qualco-> Here.

Interview Transcript

So hi, everyone. I’m here with Guy Statter, who’s the head of UK sales for Qualco. So guy, thanks very much for joining me today. Appreciate it.

Glad to be here, Chris.

So it’d be good to hear. I mean, certainly from a Kolko point of view in terms of like, what are some of the things that you’ve been hearing in the market? It’s been a pretty crazy last couple of years. What what are sort of the themes that you’ve sort of been seeing recently?

So I guess recently is in two parts, isn’t it so that the reasonably recently is everything to do with COVID, and the reactions to that, and all of the different things about needing to work from home and to just help people as much as we could on that basis. And then more recently, obviously, we have the cost of living crisis, which has presented different but related problems. The first was very much about using digital channels, to service people as best, you know, as best we could. But also, in addition to that, making sure that people were able to do home working, and then more latterly, it’s about can we find more tools, and integrate two more tools to help people quickly? Because virtually everybody has got less money in their pockets? And certainly in the, you know, in the credit and collections arena that’s creating new and different problems for everybody. So that’s kind of you know, that’s been the general trend, but the two are very much related.

And what’s your kind of view on I suppose arrears volumes and collections volumes have been hearing quite a bit that they haven’t increased the money you starting to hear from, from your clients that they’re starting to freeze feed through yet? Or do you always tell them that wait and see mode to really see what’s going to happen before they follow through is more sort of upstream.

So I think this so called tsunami of debt is still pending. But we all expect it to come at some point. And we all I mean, clients, people who speak to in the industry, etc, I think there are pockets already starting to come through quicker. And that is, obviously in the areas where perhaps you would expect, which is people who perhaps would normally struggle anyway, who are perhaps resorting to using forms of credit that they perhaps would have done like buy now pay later, also, the lower end of the SME space. But I think as it stands, at the moment, people’s behaviours are being relatively pre emptive. So people are being very proactive with managing and monitoring their energy consumption, for example, their use of of travel, their use of all that buying luxuries, etc, etc. And anecdotally, you know, people are buying themselves less things for Christmas, all of those sorts of things. So we’re all expecting it to happen. But I think at the moment, people are just adjusting their lives a little bit, you know, just sort of preempt what might happen. But it is going to still get worse. In the new year, I’m sure.

How much of a watershed Do you think the pandemic was in almost like we had almost like before the pandemic and then after the pandemic? I mean, we do you think we’ve gone through a much more sort of fundamental shift in terms of the way we do business, the way we interact, or do you think is just sort of transitory.

And so I guess, someone described it to me as bit bit like being in wartime, in at the speed of change was a such that things were being allowed to happen very, very quickly. And so I think, it has been shown that people can work from home successfully. However, there is a knock on impact of that around things like mental health, and ultimately, the the levels of collaboration that can happen, that are different to if you’re in the office together, and so on, and so forth. So, so in terms of where people work, I think that we will never go back to everybody being office based, I think. So that’s been a big watershed. In our industry, I think it has meant that people are more comfortable using digital tools. And people I mean, both staff and customers. I think that a lot of more people are comfortable with using video, and sort of video calling. And I think this, you know, a larger proportion of the population that are comfortable using digital, but I would argue that that’s still quite a long way from being 100% of the population. And so a watershed, definitely, but it hasn’t changed everybody in their outlook at all. And we’ve still got to make sure we can service every customer through whichever channel, they want to be serviced.

I mean, there was a lot of talk about it sort of as being, you know, what’s the digital journey? What’s digital transformation, as if it was if that was almost like the end point, rather than it being sort of like, now you’re saying, well, actually, not everyone can do that. I mean, is it still an endpoint, or do you think we’re just reaching a greater level of maturity now around, you know, how do we sort of think of it in the context of processes really,

so Really good point about processes. So we tend to think of things in when we’re trying to do in planning in two different ways. We tend to think about processes and Process automation. And can we create better processes that can be automated more. And so I believe in 2023, there will be real innovation in additional new processes that many of our clients are going to need to implement. And that includes offering more services to help people, putting them in touch with people that can offer them solutions, whether it’s a debt charity, or something else in with with regards to vulnerability or its income maximisation, what have you so, so from a process perspective, we don’t expect that that will ever change. And our view on it is that we just need to be in a position to automate as much as that as we can, as intelligently as we can. And the intelligence piece comes back down to data. And data is never is also never going to end but will allow us to inform that operational decision making process, you know, better and better. And I believe in the credit collections industry, we still have a long way to go in terms of the way in which we use data, the way we collaborate using data, the reciprocity of the data that’s available to be to be used. There’s lots of steps there. And every single day, I learned something new that I didn’t know about the industry and the data that’s available in the industry, and I work in it. So if you’re a person that doesn’t work in the sector, how on earth are you going to know, for example, how to get better benefits? Or how to get a, you know, a social tariff, or whatever it might be? So I think there is there’s an ongoing process of improvement, and digital will become more and more crucial as part of that. But it needs to be supported by improved processes, and obviously better use of data as we go. Yeah, yeah.

And you talked a bit about collections process, we talked about it sort of seeing upstream and people customers being sort of quite proactive around things like managing energy costs, and those kinds of things. I mean, how much of an effort do you think we’ve got to try and put on that pre collections process and all the pre arrears process? When are you seeing people starting to turn to that as almost like, if something happens, then we’re here to support you? I mean, do you think, are we making enough effort around that?

We certainly have a lot of conversations about it. So I would say when we’re doing, you know, solution demos or workshops, it is one of the first three questions that get asked I would say Now, interestingly, it’s moved up the list ahead of later stage things around, say, debt sale, or legal and litigation, which tells me that probably the ultimate sponsors of large transformational projects, rather than thinking about the bottom line of can I make a debt sale or whatever, they’re probably more thinking about, actually, how can I manage my vulnerable customers better, which is great. So so therefore, I think it is becoming more and more important. And I think, when we talk about vulnerability, particularly, people are now saying, it doesn’t matter whether they’ve missed someone’s Mr. payment or not, we would like to know as much as we can about them and help them as much as we can. Even if it’s a relatively temporary piece of vulnerability, we want to reach out and offer them help. And if there’s data that’s available, a customer might have not missed a payment in 10 years if there are mortgage client, but you find out a piece of information about them, that you think you can help them with, reach out anyway. So that’s certainly something that I think it’s becoming more and more important.

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It’s quite an interesting indicator or like mini indicator of hierarchy or conversations into the fact that it’s moved up. Because it’s always a difficult area. I mean, in collections is always difficult around, you know, pre collections and what you actually talk about, and that was always, it was so tricky that almost like it didn’t quite get maybe the attention that maybe it maybe it needed to Yeah, it was like it’s moving up, like with the importance,

or Yes, I think so. And I think it’s not necessarily even that people are expecting someone to start missing payments, it’s more that, for example, they’ve reached a certain age or they something has come up in the data that says this person would benefit some sort of reach out just to check their okay. And that reach out could be a digital one. It doesn’t have to be via the telephone. And then if we find out that actually there can be fine, we won’t change anything, if we found out that actually, yeah, it turns out, they are about to lose their job because that the data told us this was likely and that’s true, then we can deal with it in a different way. But again, everything’s got to be permissioned based. So if there’s a handoff point that says, here’s where you might go for some help with X, Y or Zed, they have to agree to want to do that. So, but I think it’s absolutely okay to identify someone that might have a risk and reach out to them proactively. There’s no, there’s no risk in doing that. It’s what you do next, where there potentially is risk but you’re still trying to help them right So

I think it’s fascinating like, the more we talk about it, the more we get into, like, how do you talk about value exchange as an example, or you talk about pre arrays, we get into this, like marketing type areas, it’s like, how do you sell them just like used to sell people on how to get out of debt is like this is how do you sell them on getting support? And like, and what are some of the marketing techniques or, you know, applicable techniques that can then be used to move across into into this kind of field? I think it’s fascinating. No,

it is really fascinating. One of the things that I think has been really underused in our sector is its community technology. So there are some fantastic communities that are out there, attached to various different brands, the most famous one, I guess, or one of the most famous is probably Giffgaff, business building community. But what’s community can technology can can do is it can help people get advice from their peer group, rather than thinking I’m trying to someone’s trying to sell me something or catch me out or trip me up or whatever. Because unfortunately, in Britain, we are really cynical about large companies and, and or companies collecting debt. But, you know, Community Technology can sometimes help with that. However, I’ve not really seen it in our industry yet. I’ve had several conversations with C level people who would like like to do more of it, particularly in the long term debt space, you know, debt, purchase debt services, but I’ve yet to see it really take off. But that could be one of the things that will start to happen in the future, just because of the sheer volume of things that are going to be coming through. The reason that Giffgaff did, it was partly sort of brand, but also because a lot of the issues that they were facing could actually have been solved within the community. So that’s what they allowed to happen, they were still monitored to make sure that nobody’s telling someone the wrong way to do something. But actually, that’s not supposed to be why it’s, you know, it’s about sort of the group helping each other, which if you think about it, in other aspects of our lives, we’re all probably members of different groups for different things. And we’re passing good ideas through social channels or whatever. So there’s no, there’s no reason why with the right level of monitoring that that couldn’t exist within within the debt space. And it could help signpost people to sites like policy and practice where, you know, there’s benefits calculators, make sure people are on the right benefits. You know,

I mean, you see quite a lot in the software space, don’t you? I think my mobile phone provider does it as well, in terms of like help, and those kinds of things into like, how do you do that? How do you do that, in terms of, I suppose things like vulnerable support, and those kinds of things that could be quite interesting.

So you’ve got to be really, really careful that the content is correct. And that it’s in areas whereby people can’t, your bad actors can’t have a voice. So I’m not saying it’s easy. And I think that’s probably why the industry has been reasonably resistant, because the policing of it can be difficult. But I certainly know in the fraud space, for example, there’s been a lot of work in that space. And it’s really paid dividends, even a lot of information sharing, but there’s also been a lot of best practice being discussed at the consumer level, through these sorts of things as well. So, so that’s, that’s one tip for maybe not 2023, but maybe maybe 2023 2024. more use of community, I think, could work.

And I’m sure some of the big software companies, I mean, where they do now, and they have to moderate the discussion as well, and they’re gonna have some of the same issues. I mean, they’re, they’re lightning rods for a lot of bad comments, I would think as well, they probably have to moderate it pretty heavily.

And that’s, you know, I’ve spent a lot of time on that side, in my career as well. And there is absolutely, that there is software that then goes on top to monitor negative sentiment on trades, etc, etc. And, of course, the community officer themselves should be in the conversation. So it’s completely fine. You know, for a another water companies community officer to be involved in the conversation, making sure that they’re putting people in the right direction. But if no one else can do that for them as part of that community, then that’s good news for everybody. So

yeah, so gametize has customers and sort of contact as well. I mean, where do you sort of seeing in terms like, we always talk about contact channels or engagement or those kinds of things? I mean, community brings up things like behavioural scoring or behavioural economics, but I mean, what are you seeing in terms like trends in terms of contact channels, and then in terms of in terms of engagement as well, new ways of getting hold of people, particularly when we need to, when we need to offer them support? Yeah,

so I mean, we partner with different organisations who offer different channels of engagement, where po would be a good example of that. And I think the ideal thing is to understand where people spend their time and then once we understand that it’s then what sort of messages can we deliver to them through that channel and what sort of outcomes can we get So, so whether you know as an example is good for two way conversational messaging, and there are some simple transactions you can execute through those channels via WhatsApp or, you know, various other social media sites but also through, you know, conventional email, SMS or whatever, where you need them to do something a bit more complex and have a more complicated journey, then that’s where you might want to do a self service activity or something like that we partner with with a number of suppliers. Devstream is probably our our most mature partnership in that space. And that is more than just conversational, that is a series of options based on a series of data steps to then get the customer to then do any number of debt resolution situations, or multiple depending upon how you’ve set things up. If they have multiple products with you, they may end up doing multiple things, you know, through that through that site, we as a software provider, we act as the orchestration for that. So we make sure that we have the right data to present the right messages, and the right levels of options into those channels. And obviously, we try and do it in real time and pass the information back in real time to what the core system is, we would call it because that’s ultimately the system of record. And should that customer then ring in because they’re not sure if something’s handled digitally, an agent needs to be able to see exactly what has happened. But in terms of the channels of engagement, definitely more and more people are moving online, more and more people are happy to do things within say Facebook, messenger or WhatsApp or whatever. But ultimately, there still needs to be a complete audit trail. So that’s should something go wrong, everybody can see what has happened. And so there is an expectation that that will happen and people still quite virtually everybody we work with still sends various complimentary emails and things like that with reference numbers on them, just so that there’s a level of satisfaction for the customer just to make sure they know they’ve what they’ve done. And everybody’s clear and comfortable. So in that way, I shouldn’t but it’s necessary. As far as I’m concerned,

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it’s coming back to that whole ecosystem piece. And then how do you sort of orchestrate the ecosystem and having everything in one place, so you can actually audit it? Certainly financial services and, you know, all your utilities, it’s going to be so critical, isn’t it absolutely, actually understand, actually, what’s what happened. And obviously, that becomes almost like a barrier to integration to certain extent, because the compliance piece or the audit, the audit, tracking,

integration will solve a number of those issues. But where you hand off a customer to, say, an organisation that I don’t know, helps, let’s say, let’s say we’ve identified that the customer is a reasonably recent refugee, and we’ve handed them off to someone who can help them with housing, and maybe speaking Ukrainian, we can audit that we’ve sent them. But what then happens after that, unless they tell us, that’s where the communication loop stops. And we can only make decisions about what to do next with them based on the information we have at the time. So if they don’t tell us what happened with their housing benefit, or whatever, we can only go we can then make decisions on the previous point to that the fact that we sent sent them there. So that feedback loop once we start going out into the ecosystem to providers who are doing things that are not directly limited, related to the account that the person perhaps is overdue on, that’s where it gets a bit more tricky. But I think it’s still important. If there’s helmets available to people and you know where it is, you should still send them. But you just have to accept that you may not get all the data, you need to work out what’s happened. And that’s just me, we’ve got to get on with as an industry really?

And what about things like engagement, so I was having a bit of fun, I’d be looking at chat GPT has made quite a lot of noise over the last the last few weeks in terms of, you know, like automated conversations, sending conversations, those kind of things. I mean, do you think do you think what do you think that’s going to sort of eat into some of the some of the conversations we already have, or maybe making me maybe make them even more sophisticated than we’ve already got, versus some of the existing sort of, I suppose web chat response type channels or just even greater sophistication around some of the chat. That takes place?

Technically, there aren’t there is there are software out there that can understand sentiment, both in the way things are said and the words that are used. And there is already aa AI driven conversations. And there is the whole idea of the metaverse, which is that things can be controlled by the user. And the next thing that needs to happen can render and it is almost like watching TV, but you’re on there almost kind of making it up as you go along to suit your journey. So So in theory, all of the technology exists to basically give people almost anything that they want on a virtual basis, which means that you could have a completely automated conversation filled with empathy with a person who looks as real as URI, but it’s actually computer rendered. In theory that is available now all of those component parts are together. Of course, in reality, that’s an awful lot of things to build. And at the moment, the only people that are building it are the big tech companies along with, say, a big motor finance or big motor business, who were just concept stuff. So, you know, in the metaverse, I’ve seen people looking to buy a car. And in theory, they could say, show me the backseat, and the avatar would go and show the backseat or what have you. So that’s, that’s fine. And in collections, there is a finite amount of endpoints that you can go to. And so in theory, you could you can have those conversations about those endpoints. The bits that I struggle with, still, with all of this technology is, how do you emote, realistically? And how can you ever have a way of dealing with people’s lives that might have multiple different things that you’re dealing with? At the same time, and each one is individual. And so that’s the bit I find hard to fully a automate and be say that we will ever be able to remove people completely from process.

I think I was like, see, it was almost like if you ever play games, and you have these, like non player characters, you can interact with them, right? So you can go into somewhere, and you can see exactly, yeah, and you can interact with them. And you can have some really interesting conversations as long as within the confines of the game. But if you want to talk about something that’s outside the confines of the game, or if you want to rely on the information or rely on it as advice, how do you make sure the advice is actually correct? And how do you make sure that they’re given the answer? And at what point then you then have to refer to an agent to do that. And then I suppose on the converse of that, then how do you make sure that the advice that a person gives has the same level of detail or, you know, transparency behind it as say, the computer might do? I mean, it’s almost like, it’s like, how do you find the right tool for the job at the right time?

Absolutely. And the answer is, I don’t think anyone’s quite worked that out yet. Because there is so much now that you need to know about when you’re dealing with any vulnerable customer. And in fact, you know, even if you’re just dealing with a non vulnerable customer with a complex product, there’s a lot there. So yes, in theory, you could build all of that into some answer database for chatbots, or whatever. But what I say going back to my original point, it’s still quite difficult to then use the right levels of emotion. And, again, all of this software, there is software out there that does all of this stuff, but pulling it all together. And doing it intelligently. And making it completely full, is a real challenge. And there are many of us who just want to speak to an empathetic human being talk about the football, talk about the weather, relax a little bit and then get to the nub of it. And, you know, the whole small talk, but I’m not sure that we’ve got Yeah.

It’s interesting. So how much how much of the almost like the collections experience is going to be about the pragmatic advice, which is what as business we would say, it’s all about pragmatic advice. It’s like, you know, we got to give the right solution and trying to get people’s solutions as quick as possible. There’s two things. First, is actually the human small talk and the, the the empathy and as though they’re very sort of subtle things that are very hard to put at least $1 figure or a pound figure on I mean, Where’s where’s that? Where’s that? Where’s the balance? Where’s the balance?

Yeah, exactly. All I would say is that when I’ve been involved in offshoring projects, there’s always been a little bit of an element of having to lifestyle train, an agent that might be set in India, in South Africa, about things like the cost of school fees in Britain, or the squat, the cost of satellite television, sports, whatever, or any number of local things that are the way in which we do things. We do things locally. And so that isn’t necessarily, you know, a functional answer to anything, it’s just actually being able to understand that the what the person is talking about how much value it has, does or doesn’t have, and why it’s important or not important. So paying the school fees for some people in certain areas might be far more important than something else. But you know, you’re far more, you’re far less likely to know about it if you’re offshore, let alone if you’re actually not even though effectively. This is an entirely virtual experience. And therefore, there’s only a stock level number of answers that you can you can talk about. So, I think, I think ultimately there is there is going to always need to be a need for people. But those people need to be more and more well trained, and they need to be able to use the technology and understand it as well. So it’s not an either or.

The analogy I was thinking of is what’s happening to retail as an example. So He tells become if you want to be very functional, go online. So we all go online, we buy stuff, it’s very functional online, it’s very quick, you probably get slightly slightly cheaper price, potentially, as well. And it rides very quick, but like, but that’s not the reason why you go to the shops, we were talking about going to the shops over, over the weekend. And it’s like, and you go there for the experience, you go there for, you know, his Christmas. So you know, you go there for the, you know, the, the sausages in the in the barns and the coffee and the experience of it rather than, you know, rather than necessarily just because you want to buy stuff, right? And do you think that’ll happen to collections, though as well, where it becomes, you know, maybe even a differentiator of service? In terms of what you want to do when you want to do it?

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Yeah, I, I think there’s gonna be an element that I think we all need to be aware that certain individuals like to build relationships, particularly I think, people who are new to a process, they like to get comfortable with an individual. And I think it’s worth people acknowledging that and working with that, and certainly within our system, you know, if if we’ve spotted that an individual has been on the phone for a period of time with a particular with a particular agent, if if the rules allow, we would probably look to sort of reroute that person back to that agent, if that makes sense. And that’s the policy. So I think there’s definitely that for certain, you know, there’s a comfort factor. But there’s also a convenience factor. So if you are sat on a bus or you’ve got a couple of minutes, wherever you might be, you don’t want to do that, you just want to quickly engage the way you want to engage. And I think the key is just making sure that our end user customers are educated about how we will work. So hey, if you want to chat with someone, that’s great. If you want to just use some sort of an app or self service, here’s how you do it, that’s great. You want to have a bit of both, you can use web chat, here’s how it goes, if you want to do it in a different way, that’s fine. And then the other thing is content. So I think video is now a very accepted means of creating content in the world. And yet, in our industry, we don’t use it very often. So for example, if someone needs to fill out a form, to make a claim for a benefit, because they’re vulnerable, I don’t know, but I’ve not seen any videos that just show them how to do that. And yet most of us would think nothing of going on YouTube and looking at a recipe to how to make whatever, you know, including the you know, including I say the elderly or the older generation are now comfortable with that, then yet we as an industry, aren’t you using it. But a good curator journey could say, actually, I know you want to find out these pieces of information. If you want to speak to this person to this, if you want to try and have a look at yourself, here’s a video, let us know what you thought whether it was helpful. And if not, we’ll call you anyway. So you know, I think there’s a real Miss missing a few bits in the process that would make it a lot easier for everybody.

Yeah, and it comes back a little bit back to that idea, right? How do you make it an experience and an engaging experience as much as possible in the world. And that’s I mean, as we’re sort of up for competing with time with that, aren’t we in terms of like getting hold of people, right, as an industry,

we are, and I think a branding level. You know, none of it from a collections perspective, there’s still a lot of work to be done, it’s been a lot of improvement done. And I think if you go and look at Trustpilot reviews, or other things from other people in our industry are doing much better now. But they’re still probably not the place that you would go to talk about all your financial woes, but they could be. And if they give you help in other areas, as I say, for example, helping show you what benefits you get, or helping show you how you could find a lost pension that you forgot you had or whatever the thing might be, the brand value will improve. Because I think most organisations want to have long term relationships with their customers, even if that’s in, you know, in the debt space. So, so by the adding these extra things in, that’s great. But the value exchange there is, you know, you engage with us, and we’ll show you how perhaps we can help you with this thing over here or reduce your payments, if that’s the right thing to do, etc. And I think some general financial services, education would, would help as well. So, you know, just people understanding that, if they show that they’ve got a little bit more disposable income, it doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re going to be asked to increase their payments. You know, it just means that people have a better understanding of what’s happening. And equally, they can treat them better if they if that reduces and so on. So I think there’s, yeah, there’s just an ongoing process of education, I think we could all be doing better.

So obviously, we’ve been through time a huge sort of change over the last couple of years, where do you sort of see us going into into into the rest of the new year?

So I think we are probably not going to see as many large scale transformational projects as we would like. I think there’s a worry that further bad things are going to happen and that people don’t want to be putting all of their their resources into major change projects, in case they need to pivot into something else. So we’re expecting people to do much more incremental change little piece is where there’s real pain, protests, paying or whatever to do those sorts of conflicts, those sorts of things. So what we’re looking to do with a number of partners is to make things as easy as possible to try and take out the need for large scale it projects, and actually sort of put more things in the hands of business, but also create clear benefits and clear value very quickly, we’re obviously somewhat large scale transformation projects, you kick them off, and the value might kick in, in a year’s time or even longer, we’re trying to do things that are, you know, a simpler level, get to deliver more value more quickly. But we’re not, you know, we’ll do we might, there might be part of a long term transformational piece, but but actually, they’ll deliver value quickly, particularly in digital services, but also, as we talked about previously, integrating new data services to give people more options, and make sure that those options are available in an easy to use and consume way. Right. So, you know,

so that’s almost like a, like a modular type approach. So it’s almost like with Magento, sort of time to time to delivery, almost as

we obviously, software providers would all love to get into some big transformational projects, and we still have a handful of those that were involved in, but I think it’s more about getting to value quicker. And having perhaps multiple work streams that might happen, but they will take a bit shorter period of time, and they deliver value and they almost pay for the next thing to happen. We have that, you know, there is gonna be a growth in certain sectors, and particularly sort of the sort of what I would call more tactical lending space, I would say, and in that space, that they they’re expecting a lot of their customers to it, unfortunately fall into arrears. And then those businesses won’t scale using people. You know, so there will be technology to support that. And that’s what we’re looking to try and help them with, but it will be done as a in a in a modular basis. I think

it’s certainly gonna be an interesting, an interesting year, see how things has been an interesting couple of years. And in terms of, you know, how things have, how things are sort of how it played out, and they’ve been huge amounts of change, I suppose. Would it be interesting to see what what happens in in 23? Really?

Yep, definitely. Yeah. And we’re just hoping for no more major world events. You know, that’s the, I think many of us, we don’t know what it’s going to be, but we’re now kind of fatigued of it. And we’re just thinking, well, what could the next thing possibly be? And I think that’s why, as I said earlier, people aren’t necessarily throwing everything into a massive change. Because there might be something else downstream that we just haven’t seen yet.

Hopefully, hopefully, we want to sort of gradually on an up curve, if we can at least a stable curve. Anyway, we’ve just been so many shocks. It’s been very hard to plan. Well, guy, thanks very much for making the time. I really appreciate it as ever. It’s always always an interesting conversation when you and I chat, so, really appreciate it.

No worries. Alright, thanks, Chris.

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