Insights and impacts in Debt Purchase

In the full conversation with Craig Hinchliffe, CEO of the Perch Group, we talk about the impact the COVID pandemic has had on consumers, payments and subsequently some of the challenges there are with debt pricing in the current market.

Consumer preference and dynamics around contact are changing and this is all flowing through to how they think about process design.

Back in the office, things are also coming back to life and Craig explains some of the benefits he is seeing with the team too.

Find out more about the Perch Group-> Here.

Interview Transcript

So hi everyone, I’m here with Craig Hinchcliffe, who’s the CEO of the perch group, you know, so and there are there are there are a debt purchase collections organisation, they got in house legal capabilities for it from a collection point of view. So Craig, thanks very much. Thanks for joining me today.

Thanks, Chris. Glad to be with you. And lastly, back in the office as well. Today,

I wanted to ask you a little bit around purchase market, I suppose what’s what’s happening in the debt purchase arena over the last 18 months? I mean, it’s been huge, huge changes elsewhere, but good to hear sort of your perspective on it.

Yeah, I’m just going to I guess it’s worth just framing where we are in the market. So we’re not in the in the big test, we’re not covered or an hour or hour arrow, we sit in the in the lower to mid market. So some of the clients we deal with them or in the alternative finance space. So I’m going to be talking more about what I’m seeing in our space, as opposed to in the tier one tier one banking space. And so I guess, yeah, 18 months, crikey, what an 18 months, it’s been as well. So I guess initially, when when COVID first started to bite, what we saw as a business, and what we saw sellers do as well, was basically kind of pull the shutters down. So as a purchaser, April, May, June 20, you know, we basically stopped buying. And actually, to be fair, most of our, our clients stop selling as well around the same point. So, reasons for that, you know, we were scared as to what was going to happen, both from a wider macro macro perspective, but also, from a personal perspective, we’re worried about virus. So at the time, it was all about cash preservation, just to see, you know, understand the government government initiatives and see where, where the world was going, I think from a seller perspective, and, you know, they had their own battles to deal with the seller stopped originating, or most of the sellers retail, there was stopped originating, and there was the whole, a whole bunch of government initiatives coming around around, you know, forbearance and all the changes they need to make to their account. So again, it was easier for them to stop selling. And then what happened? So around kind of late summer time, so August, September, we saw a couple of the clients come back online. You know, we came back online as well. The furlough schemes are up and running. And actually, we you know, from a collection perspective, we we saw collections debt, April, May, June, and then starts recovering July, August, September, which, which has been widely reported. Now, you know, the haves and the have nots, and those customers that have, have definitely managed to save more and pay down their debt. So too, so it’s been a really good time for the majority of debt collection businesses and debt purchases from a collection perspective. And coming back to the purchase side of things, the market started to open up again, and kind of late, like 2020. And albeit, the volumes weren’t there, like they were, what we saw. And the reason for that was, I guess, a lot of lenders really tightened up their scorecard really, really thought about who they were lending to. There was a period three, four months where they stopped lending. So those charged, you know, the typical flows to should reduce significantly. And I think there’s, there’s still a gap in the mark, I don’t think the lenders are fully back in or they are now but I think that hiatus lasted probably a good 12 months across the market. There’s been a slowdown in the debt sale market. Fast forward into 2021. Again, we had an awful lot Galax started this year. Personally, I found that the hardest lockdown, you know that the depth of winter and the lockdown, we didn’t know when it was going to end. Or from a depth purchase perspective, I guess. The markets were open, but I guess everybody else was feeling pretty similar. So it was a lot of activity and that q1 of this year, and q2, q2 has been a good year. I think from what I’m seeing the final quarter of this year is pretty hectic, there are an awful lot of sales on the market right now. I think they should have got away kind of over the last couple of months. And but they’ve been delayed for various different reasons as the markets getting quite hot again at the moment.

I mean, it kind of it kind of feels like the pressure was building up and there wasn’t a lot of activity. And it’s all it’s built up almost like a head of pressure for now. Now, and it feels like over the summer, particularly after the summer feels just like everyone suddenly started. But the world’s come to life again a little bit.

Absolutely the world’s come to life and the charge of parts have grown. So the sellers are in the market again. And what that is that for doing is actually driving prices up because a lot of the buyers a lot of the debt purchasers Haven’t you know necessarily bought the volumes that they would have liked to over the last 1218 months. So they’ve got a backlog in that kind of purchase volumes. The sellers are now coming to market and that picture is hungry and that’s that’s really going to drive the price and drive the margins down.

And then as far as payment capability in your models, how much how much you sort of thinking about or factoring in as far as people’s capacity to pay Has the people’s capacity to pay changed as a result of the pandemic? And you sort of had it sort of like being sort of segmented to certain extent. And like some cases, it might be in some cases might mean, how are you thinking about how you’re thinking about that, because that can have a big impact on pricing.

It’s really tricky. And for business of our size, we’ve been going for about four years. And you know, 18 months of that has been in COVID. And if you think we had a serious dip at the start, then we’ve had an uptick, we’ve been trending quite nicely, we’ve got the end of Universal Credit, I’m sorry, not the end of Universal Credit. rephrase that we’ve got the reduction in Universal Credit, we think about how that’s going to impact our customers, we’re writing out to them, I think it’s this week, just to understand if they need to reengage. So I think it’s really, really difficult to actually price the market from a collection perspective, You’ve almost got to go back 18 months, and look at curves from 18 months ago. And prior to that, to understand what a normal customer looks like, pre COVID Rather than trying to look at the performance of last 18 months, because I think there’s you know, I know that collections have been inflated the last 18 months. So you’ve got to look back, but where where do we think the world is going? Crikey. You know, what, what a macro question. That is, I think, you know, you’ve got inflation, you’ve got the end of the furlough scheme is a million people currently sat at home looking for a job, I very much doubt it, I’d love to dig behind that number and see how many already are employed. You know, all you see in the press every day is, you know, there’s a lack of a lack of resources, right across markets. And that can really lead in my opinion, to, to wage inflation.

Inflation, inflation is sort of rearing its head a little bit, it kind of concerns me a little bit and from, from a debt purchaser point of view, or from a collections point of view, how should we think about inflation or prepare for it, because it kind of does inflation is one way of eroding asset values, which can, you know, if you’re in a job, it can be a great thing. But if you’re not, then it’s, it’s really, it’s really not a great thing, either. I mean,

one was always look at inflation, as if everyone is getting a five 10% pay rise over the next two to three years appreciate the disposable incomes isn’t necessarily going up at the same rate, or that the debt is remaining static, you know, that the type of debts, we buy our static balance, we’re not adding interest and fees. So actually, the real cost of the debt to the customer is arguably going down in a world in which you have inflation. So there is an argument there that says there should be an increased collection rate due to unemployment, you know, inflation within the within the economy. However, the reality is, some of the customers that, you know, fall into financial distress, are not likely to be the ones with it with a 10 15% pay rise that that are benefiting from wage inflation, fortunately, so I think so another very difficult area that we need to consider, you know, in the longer term thing here, and now, you know, listen to the government mantra, we think that inflation is gonna be short term, not necessarily long term. Yeah. But again, you know, until until we solve the labour market and the resource in the labour market, I think I think inflation is, you know, is going to run for another 12 months, quite strongly.

See also  Apps and Mobile becoming increasingly dominant

Yeah, I mean, if you have inflation and you have a job, then you get the pay increase. But if you don’t have a job, which is more like in collections, and everything else is going up as well, which puts you more stress, right, which might make it more difficult to collect. That was that was one thought, but then the other thought is, well, then what happens to balances from a collection strategy point of view, you probably want to collect as quick as possible, I would think, you know, from from a cash flow and time value, it’s gonna change the time value of money, I would have thought. Yeah,

I mean, it’s really, isn’t it? You know, I think you’d be in the collection world for a while, everybody always wants to collect the money as soon as they can. Yeah. For the full amount, and that’s the optimal. You know, that’s the optimal outcome from a financial perspective, but it’s not necessarily the way the world has gone. We’re a regulated business and imposed upon us that with the consumer needs. And again, I just think, you know, it’s very difficult to predict the impact of Brexit, the removal of a huge slug of our labour force. And what what does that mean, for for real salaries in the real economy? Do we? Are we going to see more, you know, higher levels of employment and therefore, a greater ability for customers to repay their debts? Because there is more more job availability, paying higher rates? You know, we’ve got labour at the moment talking about a 15 pound minimum wage, how far away is that? You know, 20 is, is that the target? What does that mean to collections? Well, if you have a minimum wage of 15 pounds, actually, in five years time, no, that’s going to be hugely beneficial to collections, but it’s a it’s a bit of a gamble to to build a strategy on that.

Yeah. So seems like at the moment, we’re in most like a bit of a wait and see mode. Listen to you, at least anyway. So like, so back in the market, the market sort of activating again, or it’s sort of active and there’s the we’re in that sort of like, everything’s shuffling around, just deciding so like, how are we going to land in sectors that kind of fair?

Yeah, That’s exactly right. And I think so in terms of how we’re approaching this, we’re looking at the data from 18 months ago. And prior to that, so we’re trying to normalise out the COVID effect, we’re not overlaying necessarily for inflation and the wider macro effects here. And now what what we are doing, though, is just trying to build in a bit bigger margin, pricing that risk, because there’s definitely, you know, a number of risk factors, which you’ve which you’ve articulated already for your questions. And I think it’s too hard to scientifically, you know, here and now put a number on those. Hence, we’re trying to put a bit of margin in our prices. The challenge there is, like I said before, the market is pretty hot, there’s a lot of people with cheap money, and therefore, you know, trying to push a higher return, may lose you the deal.

Like, imagine you’re managing one aspect of it, we’ve also got supply and demand or the other or the other side, which is everything’s sort of interacting, it’s going to the other side of the equation on the p&l, I suppose you’ve got the cost side as well. And in terms of like, cost to collecting, etc. I mean, Digital’s been a big theme, digital transformations now currently pretty hot theme font for most of the people I talked to, are you seeing any of that with, you know, some of the customers you’d interact with? I mean, and how do you sort of see that sort of expanding or sort of rolling out over the next, like, six, six months or so?

So, you know, it’s definitely an area of focus for us. So there’s a number of parts that are, I guess, the question, so what are we I guess, if we say, just how does how is our business structured, so we’ve got a payment portal, about about a third of our customers currently interact digitally? With that kind of coming through? Coming through our our agents in the call centre? So, you know, again, what would you like to happen going forward, we’d like a lot more self service, like customers to engage, you know, whatever channel they choose. But you know, from a business perspective, the digital channels there 24/7, Oregon, trail, Rick, we can control that conversation in a much more structured structured way. And so we’d like to, we’d like to grow the digital channel, and we’re looking at looking at a couple of couple of options at the moment, including open banking, and how it could integrate open banking. As you know, you know, what the customers in the debt collection world think of open banking, what’s the uptake rate going to be, we’re going to trial it and learn for ourselves. We’ve heard anecdotally, it’s very low channel offer to the customer. And if that’s the channel they choose, then, you know, we’d like to provide that and cost to collect really interesting for us at the moment. And we, we’ve recently just upped all our salaries for our low level staff, we’ve actually applied at 10%. Blanket pay rise to all our agents. And when we saw quite high levels of attrition after that queue on lockdown this year, so most of the stuff have been sticky, right up till April and May June, there was quite large levels of attrition, not necessarily staff jumping from one call centre to another, but staff having a complete career career change, oh Qualtrics review city, going into try new things, etc, etc. And, you know, anecdotally, I’ve heard across the sector, that it’s been the same, it’s not just our business that suffered there, it’s right across, people re reevaluating what they want in life. Yeah. So we’ve had, we’ve had a lot of people leave, we’ve had to hire them back in. And coming back to the resource point, there’s a real lack of a skilled resource in the market. So in order to attract that we’ve got we’ve had to pay higher prices to get them in and try our competitors. So, you know, talking about pay rise as we’ve given a 10% pay rise across, you know, out 60 staff in our business,

it does feel like the the resourcing challenges have sort of accelerated over the summer. You know, do you think that’s just Do you think that’s just because people, you know, take it took a step back, and they’re sort of working remotely? And you know, they just want to do something different? Or do you think it’s like, people don’t want to go back to the office, or, I mean, there’s lots of different variations, I’ve kind of heard

I think it’s, I think it’s horses recording that everybody’s got their own story. I think, I think a lot of people have been on pause for 18 months, and, and they’ve come off pause and realise that they just missed 18 months of their life. And people are looking for something, something new, something different, and adventure. And those adventures were just part of everyday life historically. And now we’re trying to work out how to how to replenish and make our lives richer. And I think, you know, I think working from home for the best part of 18 months, you know, can be difficult, ie missing the social interaction, and just simply changing jobs, you know, gives you gives you something exciting to look forward to.

And you can look at it as like, well, people change jobs all the time. And we’ve just got just like, you know, debt sales have sort of bunched up and they’ve sort of happening a little one so so so it moves the people, right, as well as I mean, you know, but we wouldn’t have noticed it necessarily if it was spread over 18 months, or maybe not quite so much. I don’t know.

See also  Working remotely - a great leveller

Yeah. I think though, within our business what we’ve noticed Just as we’ve always had attrition, you know, kind of environment, you get quite high attrition. What’s different is and the reason for the levers. So normally, it’s, you know, I’ve gone through the call centre, and I’m getting paid a pound an hour more. And we kind of accept that. What we’ve had a lot of more recently is, I’m moving to a new city, I’m starting a course and going to a city. And it’s that whole kind of choose to feet into a whole new challenge, as opposed to, you know, a small incremental change.

We’ve all sat back and sort of reevaluating what’s important, maybe a little bit. Yeah, yeah. So the digital piece you sort of see as as much as as much as sort of taking cost out, but also around sort of augmenting the the experience from a customer point of view is that, in fact, that’s kind of your approach. Talk a bit about open banking there.

Yeah, I mean, I mean, clearly, I mean, everybody’s trying to do this, I guess in the sector, it’s easier said than done. If you really do want to have that omni channel experience to the customers, you want to offer the easiest and best solution for that customer to interact. And, you know, me personally, most of the things I do these days is via some kind of web portal or interface. It’s available 24/7, it’s less invasive. So a lot of our customers do work. And having a phone call is quite difficult when they’re at work. Whereas if you can have a, you know, a whatsapp chat, or do something on a portal, it can be much more discreet in the office environment. I think technology allows us to do that. I think, you know, a lot, a lot of people in the sector have a core CRM, and it’s all about how you can API instance, CRM, and then build your, your workflows to engage customers, all of that, you know, in a much more cost efficient, but in an integrated manner, so that you don’t kind of go down one route with a customer, whether it’s up but at the same time, they accidentally lettering them or calling them. So it’s making sure that the glue that holds you on the channel together is holistic and speaking to prevent multiple columns at the same customer,

sort of an integrated approach rather than just one one channel a lot team sites and feels like that sort of coming through. Yeah. So before, before we started here, we’ve just chatted about being back in the office. So you’re in you’re in the office. Now, you see I’m not. How are you finding it? How are you finding anything back? And how that how your team funding is being backed as well. I mean, benefits and, you know, pros and cons, I suppose.

Yeah, so and, you know, from a personal perspective, we’ve got a lockdown dog. So we’re not having to juggle a lockdown dog. And that’s Yeah, I actually try bring it in tomorrow. So we’ll see how that goes down below. And what we found is the energy levels to change and change agenda, all the exciting projects that we seem to have restarted since we’re face to face, we’re all put on pause whilst we’re working from home, and one I think that is more to do with is the energy level. So this is our business, I’m not saying is true for every business. But when we are together in the office, we have a lot a lot more energy, the staff feel more engaged. There’s a lot more positivity around change. And it’s the change agenda. I think there’s stuff in our business, whilst we’ve been removed. I think actual productivity. It’s arguable, I’m far more productive at home. And I think most of the staff are far more productive at home. So, you know, I think productivity is an interesting one. Because there are a lot of distractions in the office, there is a lot of chat a lot of coffees that I had throughout the day. So I don’t think productivity comes into this as much as how we, how we glue as a business, how we bring our culture together and how we bring that change. agenda together. That’s, that’s the crucial bit bit for me that, that that we’ve struggled with, I think during a lockdown environment, it

seems like there’s a balance isn’t there between sort of things like productivity and it’s very transactional when you’re when you’re when you’re, you know, doing video calls and just doing emails versus the almost like the the softer human side of things, which is that around the almost like the social side of things, which is the human interaction really, rather than social skills, human interaction skills? And how do you balance the two, almost like we we went from one to the other, haven’t we? It seems like quite an extremely, probably some sort of balancing between everything is going to be going forward.

And so you know, just picking up on something slightly from now, we we’ve just rekindled our CSR committee. So we had a CSR committee pre COVID. last 18 months, you know, we’ve not really done any any major events other than the odd, you know, Zoom call with a quiz. Now we’re back in the office kind of right, where are we up to so weekly football weekly netball, you know, gatherings on a Friday? Was it summer party. So we’ve just literally put together the agenda for the next 12 months as to what our CSR roadmap looks like. So all of that has been on pause for the last 18 months and you can’t really underestimate kind of those those softer, touchpoints habit having a business and allowing you to integrate with your staff have it have a stronger culture. So excited to have the CSR back on the agenda seeing people, I think to answer your question, how do I see this developing going forward? You know, I think we’re going to adopt a bit of a hybrid working pattern, new starters and more junior staff, we’re encouraging them to be in the office, more senior staff who are kind of more back office focused, we’ve got less expects expectation for them to be in the office and happy for them to work from home. So we’re going to embrace the hybrid work, you know, working pattern and just adapt it as and when, but typically, you know, three, four days in once you’re at home, being a call centre agent is very hard job. Difficult. Customer circumstances are normally pretty, pretty difficult, those agents have to deal with a lot of a lot of challenging calls, actually, being in the Office allows them some support around that, to make sure that actually them as an individual, you know, are coping with where they’re demanding roles. So we’ve seen quite quite a spike actually, in the mental health of some of our call centre agents over the last 18 months, it’s a young workforce 20 to 23, average age, we’ve had to employ a counsellor. So we have a counsellor that comes in two days a week now, and spends time with our staff to try and help them. And that’s one of the challenge I think COVID has taken, it’s taken a big toll on our younger workforce. And younger workforce is typically on the phones, and when they’re at home. And actually, you know, I don’t think that’s the best environment for a call centre, staff member been in the office, there’s a lot more banter a lot more camaraderie, camaraderie, they seem a lot happier when they’re in their office.

These things are so doing the remote work, and that you don’t have those outlets such as your colleagues and, you know, look best practice learnings, those kind of things, it can sort of it can build up and sort of cause more sort of like, stress and anxiety, which wishes then you’re then finding sort of getting released from people then do get back to the office. Yes, yeah. I

mean, you know, a lot, a lot of the people in our call centre are social individuals, they don’t want to just get up and sit in a house, you know, on a computer all day. Yeah, their favourite part of the day is lunchtime, chatting with their friends. They’re always having some kind of game going on, or, you know, a quiz, there’s always something going on in the office, other than what they should be doing, which is going to the customers. But we accept that because it’s a difficult job and you need to keep them engaged. You need to get them motivated in that that’s one of the challenges that we’ve had, you’re in lockdown that it just not they’ve not had that level of banter and, and enjoyment in their role. Yeah,

See also  Digital OmniChannel: Enabled and growing with SaaS

I think it’s fascinating about the importance of social interaction in our sort of like in our work lives. And so like, how that’s coming through is a bit of a theme versus productivity, which has been a thing for the longest time, right? So it’s important in terms of imagination, and creativity and projects, and all of those kinds of things.

Yeah, yeah. 100 100%. And, you know, you’ll know from zoom, it’s, I think, zoom, I think they changed the settings now. But when used to have three or four people on Zoom, it would zoom in on the person speaking. So yeah, other people weren’t necessarily it was difficult for them to get their, their voice or opinion across. Yeah. Now, when you’re in a room with six or seven people, it’s okay for two or three people to have a side conversation. Whereas zoom only allows kind of one individual to talk at a time. And that in some ways, I think a stifled a bit of creativity, a bit of challenge.

Where it can be, it can be difficult when you’re in a meeting, right, you can be taking notes, and you’re looking down and people don’t take offence, but when you’re when you’re on a big screen picking up the screen, people say like, you know, I’m looking over here at some notes I’ve got on my other screen, it’s like, well, why are you looking at these sort of things. So it’s quite quite an intense environment into it. And I think we all had zoom fatigue quite a bit over the last, you know, the last 18 months or so because it’s tiring, right.

100% And then there’s the whole, you know, hiding the camera. So we’re not showing our faces now, because we were 100% committed to the conversation. Whereas the reality is, when you’ve got the odd, you know, the same management call every week, you know, you know, I’m guilty of this as well you put your earphones in, you go on mute and you you go for a walk with the dog for half an hour which is great for for work life balance, but you know, you’re not at your desk, you know, you haven’t got the report in front of you. And it’s and it’s if everybody’s doing that then actually you know is that call as effective as it could have been? Probably not. And when you’re in the office, there’s no hiding and I think that’s where you get the energy when you’re in the room. The energy is slightly higher.

Yeah. Now so as I was chatting with someone over the weekend around the time and the fact that you know, our time has become sort of, you know, really quite efficient I suppose as a result of lockdown. And now we’re having to almost like go back to maybe in the office working and you find that time is getting more stretched so you know you’ve got to commute let’s say to work and you know that I mean that’s that could be an hour two hours out of your day. It certainly was for me. I mean is it is that putting stress you think on employees in terms of like now having to fit even more in because they filled up the other free time they have

you Yeah, you know, and this isn’t necessarily from speaking to work colleagues, this is more like my friends as well. And we’re all at Breaking Point with our social lives. You know, I’ve got three kids, and there’s quite other family members with friends and with three kids. And every Sunday night, I have to sit down with my wife, and we have to plan a schedule out, it takes about an hour now, Sunday nights work out who’s doing the drop off, who’s in the pickup, who’s them, you know, dropping off, who, where when. And again, I think this is, this is this is a, another issue of pent up demand. So kids haven’t gone to a rugby club, or football club or swimming or whatever it may be for 18 months. So you’ve signed up to all these clubs again. So you’ve got all this demand, you’ve got used to doing the school drop off used to do in the school, pick it up, done, who used to do it before COVID. But we need to find that person and get back to this definitely, there’s been a, there’s been a shift, I think over the last 18 months as to what, you know, that particular for me that level of interaction I’ve had with my children, I definitely have more interactions with them. And that’s one of the COVID keeps Allen’s that with, you know, being back in the office with a commute, and trying to balance everything else. So there’s definitely far more demands, I think, on my time than the was pretty COVID. And

finally, I suppose I just get a bit of your take around what do you think’s going to happen? What do you think’s going to happen as we look forward to the market and and then particularly to a raise levels as well, as far as collectability? Good question. So

spots for having to the market, I think. So I think the credit card market is the most interesting market. And I think that’s going to be I think lending levels will start to reduce in the credit market in the longer term. With the uptick in in buying out pay later, buy pay later, there’s going to be huge for the whole sector. But more more people take on Buy now pay later loans, I think when that that becomes a regulated market, if and when it becomes a regulated market, you know, there’s gonna be a lot of customers with a lot of debt that will just pop up from nowhere. Yeah. So there’s going to be a new market and in the banner Pelita segment, I believe the credit card industry, I think will lose customer share to the banner pay later, laters I think the personal loan market will will reduce slightly again, because they’ll be less people consolidating loans off the credit cards, because they’re not taken out there. You know, like, the credit cards in the first instance. And we know that people have larger level of savings at the moment, we know we’re in a really low interest rate environment, even though interest rates we’re gonna, you know, will start to increase, they’re not going to increase massively, the Bank of England cannot afford them to go up given the level that we’re carrying. So I think I think we’re going to be in a really low interest environment. So therefore, lending will remain cheap in the mortgage market. And I think those were the good credit file can continue to access, you know, really cheap rates for personal loan and cars. And, again, you’ll see this huge demand in the second hand car market. So they’ll be good, they’ll be good lending off the back of that. The I think the challenges is kind of on the new car sales can even get the cars, you know, we’re back into the supply issue. We’re into this really strange. Just because you want an extension or a new car. Can you even get hold of one? Yeah. So we’re gonna I think lending is going to be slightly curtail for the next 12 to 24 months because of supply can’t get the cards you can’t get the builders. You can’t get the holidays, even if you might want the holidays, you know, think of the airlines. Have they got back to capacity? We know, we know they’re nowhere near capacity. Yeah. Those those those big spend items that people typically pay on credit, they’re just, you know, we’re not there yet. I think we’re another 12 months from the market being a bit more normalised. So I think lending levels have continued to be reduced. I think the Buy Now pay later is going to eat into credit cards, which have a knock on effects of personal loans. So I think there’s gonna be a slight subdued market.

That’s interesting. So So although there might be demand for, for loans out there, the supply issues that we’ve got at the moment might be curtailing some of that in the short term. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Craig, thanks very much for spending time with me. I really appreciate it some great insights that you’ve got in the market and you’re really, really across the industry, really. So I appreciate you spending the time.

Thanks. Should I put my indemnity on the end of it? These are my opinions, not the opinions of group or any other employee of the age group.

You’re quite welcome to Yeah. Thanks very much. Yes. Okay. Thanks.

RO-AR newsletter

Receive notifications of new content notifications: Subscribe here - unsubscribe anytime