In this full interview with Stephan van Calker from Tink, we discuss Open Banking. Where has it come from and in particular where is it going to?
What are some of the challenges with adoption and how are these now being overcome, all generating the new and exciting use cases that we see, all across Europe today.
Find out more about Tink -> Here.Interview Transcript
I’m here with Stephan van Calker. He is in charge of the UK and partnerships in the UK for for tinker and tinker in the open banking space. So Stefan, thanks very much for joining me today. Really, really appreciate it.
Thanks so much, Chris, for for, for having me very excited about today’s talk and send to have a discussion about open banking, where we are today and the future, of course.
So just start off, I suppose we could just get your view around sort of like how you sort of seen open banking kind of rolling out, particularly UK, but also across Europe, as well as your European company. What’s been your experience recently, I suppose over the last couple of years in terms of rollout?
Yeah, that’s a really good question. And I mean, if you look at open banking as a concept in the era of digital financial services, I mean, from the start when, when we started with, like, the introduction of credit cards, and and so on, like in the 50s 60s rise and open banking mandates in the UK was given in 2018 and 2019, Pisa to across Europe. So we were just here, right? It’s just a couple of years ago. And then a couple of milestones that are already reached, I think, and is that we see now that we now has 5 million, 5 million monthly active users on open banking. And if you look a little bit back in time is that when open banking in the UK, the monthly active users went from one to 2 million, it took like 10 months, but to go from four to five millions to just four months. Right. So I think it says something about open banking is really rolling out. I think, like, if you talk about like a rollout of open banking in as a whole in the UK and Europe, then I think what what we typically see is that I mean, we’d love to, to replicate all of our solutions wherever we can, right. And fortunately, we also can in many cases, but there’s sometimes also some, some, yeah, some caveats to be to be aware of, because right now, when when it comes to open banking randomness, I would say in the rollout of open banking, we see that the UK is definitely one of the leading markets, right. So some some European markets as well, where we see that the banks have significantly improved the API’s
push markets. So you said the UK is further ahead. I mean, which other markets do you think is sort of like leading? I mean, it sounds like the UK is further ahead. Sounds like like maybe maybe the Nordics or something other markets? Which areas? Do you think I’m probably more advanced than others?
That’s correct. I think like Sweden, for instance, our home market originally, by chance fingers, very advanced knowledge in general, Benelux Germany definitely catching up as well. We’ve seen that a couple of, of Saudi and Mo Central European markets, Eastern European markets, they’re probably not there yet where the UK and the Nordics are, but we see across all the 18 markets where we are live today. And where we cover over 95% of consumer bank accounts, we see if you look today, compared to like a year ago, we see definitely, that the quality quality of the API is is improving. What do
you think’s been sort of like hindering adoption in some of the other markets? And what’s been sort of like, why is it been able to get so far ahead in the UK? What are some of the drivers do you think?
I think some of the drivers are? I mean, I think there are a couple of drivers, I think like, and one of the most important ones is a thriving ecosystem of providers also, right, right, who builds actually propositions on on the infrastructure, if you look at the number of companies that have an asp or PSP licence in place, I think it’s about like seven or eight hundreds across Europe, 678 100, across Europe, and half of it is actually in the UK. But the thing with open banking is, it’s just, I mean, we we tend to believe that there’s not really a first mover advantage in open banking itself. Because you and I, Chris, we can both go to the FCA tomorrow, apply for SP licence connect ourselves, like any open banking API’s if I had an engineering skill so that we have really great engineering teams, but I don’t know. But basically do that and say, Okay, we live in UK, right? And we go to Ireland, we connect to ARB and boi and say, Okay, we live in Ireland, that’s all great. But the thing is, then you’re definitely not there yet, right? Because you need significant volumes to process through those connections actually calibrate connections and reach high success rates. One of the things that’s really needed in order to be successful in a market, we have a couple of examples.
The more people use it, the more providers there are, the bigger the adoption says that felt like that network effect, isn’t it? So like, so do you think from that we’d expect to see it. So like it really sort of taking off in the rest of Europe pretty pretty quickly? I would think. So like, but you have to get past that initial sort of hurdle of having enough, enough enough providers in the market of services services in the market.
Yeah, exactly. I think providers in a market that that’s one thing that should also be I think, what’s what’s really important, I mean, data legislation is also one of the most important pillars, right? And we are fortunate in Europe that we have pz two so it’s there and it’s can be used, but I think next to that, I think an actual value creation of for both consumers and businesses is also just really important. So users, users and admin talk about individuals, they would only provide access to their accounts if there’s actually value being created for them, right. So that can be, for instance, to get better control over the finances, when it gets give permission to do to do multi banking, for instance. And we see that in the in the UK, because of the maturity of the data, the open banking API’s, it’s really there, across all markets is still like in kind of this maturity.
So like adoption rates seem to be like a bit of an Achilles heel into the getting things started from a consumer point of view. And there’s been a lot of hesitancy I remember a few years ago, everyone’s quite hesitant around doing that been, but do you think you think the pandemic particularly has changed has helped change it? I mean, is that been as like a bit of a turning point in some of the markets where you’ve got that sort of critical mass?
Yeah, I mean, interesting points. And we had a quick brief before this Saturday, right. So I actually prepared a couple of a couple of figures that would be interesting to share, because we have a pretty active research team here at here at sink as well as is very active on the in the public domain when it comes to to on European level with the Eau de with the FCA and so on to be like, really at the forefront of change in the Yampa banking environment. So we’ve actually released a very interesting report on it’s called Open banking, and in a post pandemic, post pandemic rules. I mean, one of the things that we saw there, and that’s according to research by Deutsche Bank, and revenues in 2020, that were at the lowest since 2008, which was actually the peak at the financial crisis, right. And it was set lower than where it was, at the start of the decade, a couple of things that we have seen in order to actually recover from from COVID. And to actually pick up on the digital shifts that we’ve seen there. Like, there’s some some priorities that we’ve seen the backend banking executives have saving right now. So that’s, first of all reader, continuing the creation of digital services, a second, differentiating on the customer experience, but also restoring profitability, right? I mean, there’s there’s truly a massive potential for open banking to enable all of those. So maybe to more concretely answer your question, has the pandemic contributed to those increasing adoption rates? I think it has definitely had that had an impact on the adoption rates as part of digital shift,
I suppose. Yeah. So you’re sort of saying, Well, maybe not directly from a consumer point of view. But it’s we’ve all had to use digital. And open banking has been seen by by the banking world as like being an enabler for digital. So it’s really a roundabout way. It’s sort of helping but not maybe not directly.
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think to that has basically led to really a reprioritization of the banks, are you so basically when when COVID all started was like, Okay, how should we secure that as our revenues and going like, like, people that cannot go to the to the local branch anymore, right? Because it was close was locked downs, and everything was going on? And thank God, we’re now back to kind of a normal, normal, normal life. But
that’s that’s back then was really about, okay, how do we secure the revenue streams that we’ve always had before COVID as well. And open banking definitely played, plays a role in data sets, opening a really enables the speed of innovation, and platforms, such as think really, really helped to shorten the time to market for the services?
What are you seeing in terms of like the main use cases, because obviously, we’ve got with open banking, you got access to transactional data, but then you’ve also got payment date payments, because those are coming up pretty quick as well. Right? So we’re dealing with an even with variable recurring payments, sort of sort of in the sweeping stuff sort of coming up further and further on. I mean, but I mean, that there’s almost like competing, competing functionality within within within open banking and like for what you’re seeing the main use cases that people are really sort of adopting.
I would say also, if you if you would have asked this question to me like two or three years ago, then we’ll probably have been like in the personal financial management space because we saw like when open banking, guts mandates and when it came to us, we saw like lots of personal financial management apps popping up, you know, categorise your transactions and get frustrated by how much you spend on Deliveroo every month, but I think like by now we see more rather than having like, here’s all the raw transaction data and run with it and run your personal financial management on this micro services deployed, I would say so one point you mentioned in the payments Ames is really really hot right now in the payment space. We have like a couple of really good use cases already. I think there are two definitely three use cases where we’re open banking power payments work really well is first of all is bill payments, or have like your have a QR code on a bill or sent like a payments link for instance, and do like a one of payment there. I think secondly is also for wallets or buffs as well. It works pretty well. We work with a couple of investment platforms out there, such as wealthify, for instance, Robo investment platform, but it could be Basically, instead of like entering your 16 digit card details, and make a payment, actually, you can just in a couple of clicks without filling out any manual details, you can directly make payments super easy and smooth from a security side of things. Also think of like the risk for fraud and chargebacks is basically zero, right? Because it goes through strong customer authentication with with a mobile banking app. So that goes that’s that’s the use case where that’s definitely getting a lot of traction right now, I can mention another use case as well, that we that we see gets a lot of traction, I think that’s in the in like the affordability checking space. And I’m not only talking about like for, for banks, and for lenders and mortgage brokers, but also think of like any process where you do like a soft credit check, right? If you take out a broadband subscription that’s at a telco or you buy a new iPhone, or whatsoever is that we see that for this. Like for a couple of segments, think of like new entrants to country, or like people of young age 18 to 29 years old with like a thin credit file, we see that you can, for instance, say if you get rejected in like the initial credit check, or you come and kind of integrate, so we can actually use open banking as like a second chance, kind of and based on real time data there identify, Okay, what are the income streams that we see, like the real time income streams that we see on the on the bank account, so not your salary, but maybe it’s like a student, right? Who gets scholarships or any other types of benefit on the bank account? And that’s, is it data that’s not always recognised by the traditional credit checks?
So on the transactional piece, and let’s talk about that, because first you think that’s a threat to the credit bureaus. And just because you can, you can almost like query some of the affordability data in a way that’s probably a little bit easier. Certainly with that there won’t be any kind of like, credit bureau hits as well. I mean, do you think it’s a kind of a threat in terms of additional layer of data? I mean, especially can be quicker as well, more real time?
Yeah, absolutely. you’re summing up all the benefits. Right? So I’d almost go into that. No, it’s interesting points. I mean, what we see today is that is that open banking, pout affordability checks are basically used as complements to existing methods today. But I could definitely imagine a situation where it’s, especially when you go more towards like open finance, even I would say, don’t only get access to transactional data, but also to know any other type of data, right? Think of like, like, your reward system at like a supermarket of your rewards that you get from an airline or like everything, like finance, which is more like for future, but I would see for the future, it could definitely be very interesting. Yeah, a complete alternative to, to traditional credit checks. We Yeah, we already see it’s adopted or sometimes replaced. Yeah, could definitely get the existential. Yeah,
certainly from I’ve seen, it seems like that the microservices piece that you talked about earlier was was was quite interesting in terms of like, there’s a lot of promise around transaction data. And you could do all these like a you know, affordability, budgeting and those sorts of things. And it’s sort of it feels like it’s almost like got got broken down. It’s almost like the micro services in terms of looking at particular elements, like how much you spend on a particular thing, or your what your income is those things rather than, like this holistic piece, which seemed like it was maybe, maybe it will look a bit naive in terms of thinking it’s actually a lot more complex than we thought.
Absolutely, it definitely is. I mean, it’s also about because you have this, like, massive pool of data out there, right? Again, if you have like your aspp is realise you go out there connected to open banking API’s, and you get like, the raw data back, and then what, right? So I think it’s really about what we what what we’ve done a thing, for instance, that we built all those components on top of it. So it’s very easy. I’d say consumable by anyone would say like, Okay, I want to have payments, or I want to do account validations, for instance, right for direct debit setup, so maybe validate your account to to connect to like an E wallet, or something like that. So it’s definitely I think it’s really about providing that value adds by saying like, Okay, this is this is the data that you get packaged in this, this products and this problem that we’re solving for it, I think it’s so important to draft that message, rather than just saying, okay, technology is out there, and you can run with it. Yeah. Yeah. Trying
to and I was trying to frame in terms of the use case, I mean, categorization, and we’ll call our conversation here around categorization, I suppose in that and that’s, that’s quite tricky challenge into it, I suppose in terms of, you know, understanding. So if you go to your I’m spending at my local store, I mean, what am I actually spending on and how does that sort of link back to it? And it transfers it just becomes very complicated after after a while.
Yeah, it’s definitely it’s an I think categorization is also so personal, right? I mean, if you if you say, let’s say you go to the petrol station every morning to get your console and a coffee, but maybe the other nine out of 10 they go that’s to, to fuel the car for petrol. Then it’s like a whole different category right now. I’ll typically like like a BP or like shell or whatever you would categorise the payments, even if it’s just like like four or five pounds you would categorise it as as a snack or maybe as a coffee. So every time
I go to the gas station, I used to get a chocolate biscuits or something like that. And it’s like, hidden you see, if they’re hidden within the fields, venue seats,
you’re one of those that would definitely benefit from like a more personalised categorization. And these and I think a joke side of fingers, like for categorization is definitely a challenge. And I think it’s all about really training the models, right? Because no one size fits all here, I think, with categorization is just so important. And interestingly actually, it’s also thinks legacy products categorization when think, maybe just to take like a step back in time. When think was founded back in 2012. We actually started as a personal financial management app here in Sweden, where you could with alternative technology, aggregate data from all banks and credit cards and put it all in one app and it was very revolutionary at that time, right in 20. What was it 2015 2016 ABN AMRO Top Free bank from the Netherlands they came to us and said like Okay, looks very interesting what you what you guys do in Sweden, we want to actually replicate that for the Dutch markets done that love white labelled service. And from that moment, we have very high success rates. By the way up today is still the number one money management app in the Netherlands, it’s actually if we really want to to to reach many more consumers and accelerate our growth, we have to go b2b instead of b2c. So from that moment, personal finance management or how we now call money management is really the legacy products, I would say, the reason I mentioned that is that because like over all those years, we’ve been processing, so many transactions, and we’ve been categorised transactions, so many of those as well. And we have a whole taxonomy in place for that to categorise those spendings. And by now we process about 2 billion transactions on a monthly basis, with all all the customers that we’re working with. And I think in order to actually build like, like to train the algorithms, and to have a really good machine learning model in place, I think it’s really needed to process so many transactions in order to understand okay, what’s the what’s the, I mean, first of all, to to improve the accuracy of the models, but also, what is the likelihood of transaction being placed in the right
group, because I use the Legacy product to then train the categorization going forward. It’s kind of we
know how it was when we were there, right? When we were in the position of where the banks are now that have this consumer facing model? Yeah, again, it’s so important to have the categorizations to do is right, if the conversations are right, if you see if you and I go like in our let’s say, I don’t know, HSBC, or Barclays and that NatWest of whatsoever. If we go on our banking app, and we see it, that’s, like, maybe it’s 50 of our transactions is wrongly categorised, then we would we still use it, I don’t know. Because it’s like too much of a hassle right to recategorize. Everything. So it’s really important to have it right. I think.
So. So we talked a bit about transactions, just go back back to payments a little bit, because the other thing you didn’t mention is, there’s almost like, I feel that there’s almost like this, this hidden benefit of open banking payments, which is in the background reconciliation of data. And I suppose it’s cheaper than than then card and card payments, as well, as you say it’s probably cheaper than car payments. But then also, it’s probably better, because you can sort of reconcile where payments have come from a sort of thing that we know how much of that is sort of being visible, I suppose in terms of like your clients, and because it’s sort of a hidden back office thing, but it can be quite a headache for headache for a lot of companies.
Yeah, definitely. And I think open banking powers payments as a whole. I mean, it takes away lots of I mean, first of all, from them when friction of course. But on the back end, also, when you think about costs, network fees, interchange, all these kind of things. It takes away lots or lots of of course there I would say so definitely. It’s like it’s work on our ends to actually work on like the collections and the and the reconciliation type of side of things. But it does it does pay off like some companies they have like like these freeze these restraints as they maybe take care of the reconciliation themselves. For us to to take care of it. So we just make sure we have the capabilities in place and and work on that. Yeah. What about
so we got variable recurring payments that are coming up? I think it’s the sweeping mechanism that’s coming out. So I was getting quite excited about that. And I think it keeps getting delayed. So in the UK, do you think the promise is going to live up to what we think it is? Because we can do payments today? We can’t do some of the more complex complex pieces. I mean, what’s your what’s your sort of view looking forward on that? I mean, how excited should we get?
Well, we are super excited about it. We I think variable recurring payments really has a very, very, I mean, we’re all convinced of like the concept right and the for potential that is there to replace direct debit. So I’m talking about VIP premium right to replace like direct debits. And the sweeping itself is very, very easy smooth as well. But when we talk about like setting up a mandate to actually, for subscriptions, for instance, is a very strong use case of Fang to set up like a mandate. This is a frequency, this is the value of the of the amount that that’s emerging can take from, from my account on a monthly basis. That’s a really strong potential, what’s the biggest concern is that maybe the banks are not very willing to go very fast on this, let’s see what’s how that develops over the coming months, we are very driven, at least to have like, and we have like a couple of like, like pilots companies lined up that are going to test it with us. We are very excited about the opportunity, but I think it should be more market driven, then how to say regulatory driven from that set for a
better way to have it. Let’s suppose I’m talking about payments. I’m remiss at this point, not to mention that these are acquisition with you guys. I mean, so the like, what what do you think’s happened there? And what do you think some of the thinking is behind that, because we’ve seen, not just you guys get acquired, we’ve seen quite a lot of acquisition activity in the market. And it’s, it feels like this, like a lot of big companies looking at open banking, buying them for fit. So potentially, for future use cases. So, so what do you think’s driving that in the market?
I think, first of all, that these acquisitions happen, I think it’s such a strong, it shows so much that that open banking is here, right? And it’s really gets traction, I will buy the largest companies out there. I mean, if I talk like like personally about about our acquisition by by Visa, I would say that we are I mean, we will fully operate as an autonomous organisation under the visa umbrella. And I think that has, has a couple of benefits because we while we can rely on Visa has investments in such as resilience, cybersecurity, their their infrastructure, as well. But also think about VRP. Right, and these are works with basically anyone out there and like, like, major banks as well, that’s, that’s a really great, great benefit to to work together on that to help VRP get off the ground. And at the same time that we’re seeing as an autonomous brands, I mean, these are also sees that that think works really well, we’re growing enormously with leading open banking platform in Europe and with the company culture that we, that we have, and that our own governance of working with customers that works very well. But we can continue as as basically, we’re super excited about this new chapter for the organisation.
I mean, it just seems like an open banking is all about data, it’s about getting the data and then using that to then take actions on it. And it seems like it’s, it sort of speaks to that sort of, like, data world that seems to be sort of coming through very much so and so like, it’s like, I mean, there’s so much data available, I suppose. And unless this is another another lead into that I would think
working with like larger organisations also enable you to to, to work towards working with more data, right and actually talking about like, data mobility. And I mean, when we also talk a little bit about like all the markets rise and open banking adoption, and I think it’s one interesting thing that we see as well as that’s in Australia, for instance, they have vision and entire ecosystem of data mobility, so also non financial data, you don’t only have like open banking, but also open data from telcos electricity, and water out bands and all these kind of things. So that’s, that’s really moving away from all those different silos. There’s lots of talks like in in UK and Europe about that as well. Right. And so of course, like Australia’s, it’s like conceptual, but it’s really good to have this vision already. We see other other exciting developments already such just like the 90 Day Consent period, which was spine obstacle actually give reconsent every 90 days that is now kind of like taken away. And also a nice, isn’t it?
Yes, the 90 day, the 90 day re authentication process has been watered down in the UK, but it’s still there in the rest of Europe, isn’t it? So we’ve seen this like, divergence, we’re going to see do you think we’re gonna see more divergence with with the UK versus versus the rest of the rest of Europe or the EU as that sort of goes forward? I mean, what’s what’s your kind of view on that? I mean, how much how much of a benefit isn’t and do you think we’ll see more more divergence
and the UK has kind of been a at the forefront of change and when it comes to making being a year before Europe when it comes to the open banking legislation itself, now with the consent period from a takeaway that the 90 day rule so to say, a Europe that goes from 90 to 100 a day so we can argue that Europe is putting like like a step in between kind of it’s an in the UK also with the adoption is obviously across all 80 marks by We’ll see like adoption rates. I mean, because there’s only so much out there in public, right. And we see lots of things happening under the hood as well. So we see adoption rates definitely going up across across multiple markets. But we see in the UK is I mean, it’s definitely, yeah. one of if not the most mature markets in Europe. So I think it’s not entirely surprising as well, indeed, that from a regulatory perspective, it’s maybe like, like a small step ahead as well. From a
client point of view. What do you see the main barriers or hesitation around adopting open banking? And what are the what are the big things that people put up to say? Well, you know, we got to, we got to think about
it. I think that the term open banking maybe implies because it has the word banking, is it so maybe it implies that it’s just for financial services? Right? Well, that’s definitely. I mean, we work with a couple of telcos and utility providers across European and UK already, and some are implementing right now. So some are live. But we see that there’s sometimes concerns about the adoption rates that day. But we also know that that’s the companies that are testing, they don’t go back to how it was before actually, it actually, it’s only results in better conversion rates, frictionless user journeys, and so on. So I think in that sense, I think that’s maybe one point. I think, another point is also the, like, what we call the the common tech stack, right? Is tech stack, actually, the pencils maybe if like a company works on prem versus on the clouds, which you’d like more like, come a bank support, of course, it’s a tech stack. Ready? And how big of a project is it actually implements open banking? Nasha? Yeah. In the past, when open banking started, it was more like the end of the fintechs. Right. So it’s really exciting to see that we work now with the likes of NatWest in the UK and pay Paul as well. And, and SB know they and the Nordics, for instance. So it’s American Express, across a few markets. So we really see open banking is not just for the in of the fintechs anymore, but really, it really goes towards mass adoption. Now
you raise an interesting point around open banking. And I just wonder, sitting back and saying, like, it’s actually quite accurate to call it open banking, because it’s like open data around your banking. But is it named the best way? Because it can also make people like, well, I don’t have all my banking to be open. So I’m just wondering if that if that if that from a marketing point of view, we should call it something maybe a little bit more cuddly such as, you know, I don’t know, enabling financial data exchange or something like that? I don’t I don’t know. I don’t know. I just wonder I just wonder if we missed? Maybe we’ve missed stained it with, with hindsight, I don’t know. So we can come up with a better name.
Good one, we should we should ever think about it. Maybe I haven’t thought about that. Personally, I think. But I think, you know, as long as we keep saying Open banking, as a b2b would be use a much different terminology when, like a much different consumer facing terminology. I think, I think it’s, I think it’s alright, I think it’s, I mean, we will also not call it like, Okay, if you want to make a payment, for instance, make an open banking payments, right? Because opening was that. So we would rather call this for instance, and we like a whole product design team working on this right on different AB testing and see what works best for adoption as well. So we radical like pay by bank, or pay by x brands, payment methods, something like that, because the thing is also like you can and that’s another like really good thing about open banking versus Carthay. Or like other other alternative payment methods out there. I think a really good thing is that you have such a high control of the UX basically, of course, the authentication flow is managed by the bank, but everything around it, basically, I mean, we’ve SDK is in place, you can fully customise it to the to like a customer’s own, like brands and themes and colours and fonts. So you can really, as an organisation, you’re going to capitalise on your own brands. Yeah.
helps you sort of embedded within the processes. And suddenly I’ve been making brand it and everything. So yeah, definitely. That’s fascinating. So well, Stefan was really interesting. I got one last final question, which is where do you think we go from here? Right. So as you said, right at the very top, like we’ve come an awfully long way, in a in a very short period of time. It feels like it’s been accelerating the last the last six months, even even the last six months or year. But where do we go next? I mean, obviously, you’re making payments coming up. We got VIP coming up. But what’s the next step?
And we get this question a lot right about what’s, what’s next. And I think it’s really hard to be honest to think in general, how open banking will will evolve. I mean, think back about the introduction of the smartphone back in 2007. Right. I mean, who would who would have fought back then that we will now do our banking on our mobile? I think the the future opportunity primarily lays in enabling both consumers but also businesses in making better decisions. For example, lending and more Because decisions where you don’t only have access to transaction data, what’s available right now, but also maybe other mortgages that you have, right, or loans, or insurance or savings? Again, many people in the industry talk about the shift from, like open banking to open finance. And for you, I think it would actually really mean extending the depth and breadth of data and creating value added services on.
Yeah, being able to use the data to sort of really understand the customer situation. And so it becomes much more embedded and much more integrated. Yeah, that’s what we that’s what we can call open banking. We call it smart, smart banking, or smart. Yeah, or smart finance instead of open finance, who like me, maybe, maybe that’s where we should go. I don’t know.
Maybe we should go about it. Yeah, it’s a good alternative.
But, Stefan, thanks very much for making the time for today. It’s so fascinating discussion. I really, really appreciate it. It’s a it’s a great service. I mean, those haven’t used open banking, or I use it and it’s and it is fantastic. I mean, just to be able to get extra services. So it’s wonderful. So really appreciate you making the time and it’s a great, great conversation. Appreciate it.
Awesome. Likewise, Chris, thanks so much for your time. Thank you.
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