Revolutionising Debt Collections: Unveiling the Digital Future -[FULL INTERVIEW]

0:02
So hi everyone. I’m here with Trent Mckendrick. Today, he’s the CEO of arrears and arrears are in the digital collection space primarily in the US. So Trent, thanks very much for joining me, I really appreciate it. So we’re just chatting a little bit before beforehand a little bit about digital collections, like we’ve obviously seen that grow quite significantly in the UK, at least anyway, I know you were in Australia for a while. And now you’re in launching in the US just in terms of like, status, the development around digital collections between the different markets, at least using

0:32
Yeah, 10 years ago, in Australia, we really thought that digital collections would be up and going in six months, and it would be nationally adopted, it was a struggle to get people to understand that there was a way to provide a digital payment link for people to make payments online for people not to have to send in a receipt or a cheque 10 years ago, it was for me, it was like how can we create a better experience for the data, and while creating a better experience for the data and you’re gonna higher engagement rate, you’re gonna have a better outcome for your creditors or your collectors, and creating a better experience across the industry. So that was really a focus there. And I think that we’re at the point now, and since moving to the US a year and a half ago to focus on building arrears, we’re really seeing that collection agencies, and we were just at the ACA, the American collection Association event in Chicago. And one of the themes around that was how do you interact with debtors? How do you treat them, like consumers with goals, like people that are just trying to get through life that will make a payment if their circumstances are right, there are that subset, very small set of people that manipulate the system and play a game. But there are also a large chunk of people that do want to be in society and have good credit and interact well with people and not just avoid their debts. Some people go through unfortunate circumstances and they end up in positions where they are a few $1,000 to a creditor, which then goes off to a collector and then it goes through the workflow. It’s a very uncomfortable position for everybody. My feeling and back to your question is that digital collections are going to be more widely adopted across the US. And I know in Australia, it’s been it’s basically the standard, you have three or four players now out of Australia, some servicing direct collections, just leveraging digital technologies, and then some just actually providing software. And so I think that the next three to five years, we’re gonna see a massive adoption globally across the across the collections industry.

2:32
What do you think been the holdup in terms of some of the adoption in North American particularly, there’s a slightly different technology and things like SMS is the way the way the cell phone technology kind of works, who pays for what and I know that sort of generators will have different levels of adoptions and different speeds of adoption? Certainly talking with when I talk with people in in North America, there’s definitely there’s a preference towards phone and use of the dialer and some of the things that we’re more used to here. And there’s been legislation changes in the UK that was prohibited that and maybe have moved things across. What’s the catalyst that sort of generates the digital adoption? Do you think it’s a

3:04
new generation of credit consumers, you’re going into a world where baby boomers are no longer consuming credit, they’re going through the retirement stages. You have now millennials, people my age that are the major credit consumer, and they’re the ones that people for the first 510 years of their professional career probably don’t get those issues. They don’t have families, they don’t have family members to support, they don’t have those sort of general things that adults have felt throughout their lives. As Millennials become adults and mature adults with families are doing different things and spending credit cards, like we’re seeing the highest credit card balances. In the US now after the highest rate of savings, that the flow of money in the way that the economy is working is really that that millennials are the up and coming credit consumers and millennials don’t want to talk to people behind the screen. They like to negotiate with their thumbs. And that’s really where we’ve seen the adoption go from 10 years ago, where it was like, Oh, we were not that interested to companies. Okay, we need to start adopting this. And we need to start filling out how this can be implemented into our business what this automation side means what this digital side means and, and we get a lot of we have over 100 people that have signed up to our platform, we get one or two turning on a week. And really what it is it’s that okay, let me understand this before I implement this into my business because it is going to be long term. What the millennials and Gen Z’s are expecting is that direct digital side of communication, nobody wants to pick up the phone, I don’t generally pick up the phone during business hours and unless it’s a scheduled call, and a lot of people have jobs, the digital side also complements the fact that you can do things in your own time as under a self service type of operation, self service,

4:52
and I suppose certainly as you travel around the world, and you see the same behaviour and we all exhibit the same behaviour as humans, right. We’re all on rule on our phones with came from a phone and we’re on our phones. We’re all looking on social media or our messaging apps or on those kinds of things. And so right that that almost like is seems like that’s common. But it’s interesting how you have different stages of development in terms of certain in terms of financial services, in terms of this digital adoption, where there’s maybe more resistance in one place, or more sort of bias towards telephones versus others. Well,

5:19
I’ve always seen it, Chris. So when I started the Australian business, I was in the US, I was travelling with family and I was up late at night watching payday lending, go from bricks and mortar to television, on a web, you go to this website, borrow up to $1,000. And I was like, well, you can go to a website now and borrow money, I wanted to understand more about how you get money off the internet and borrow money off the internet. So it was a really a a trial and error situation where we looked at payday lending as a as a buying traditional businesses and turning them online. But what we really discovered is the area where we’re probably going to be able to be ahead of the curve is in collections because credit consumption is digitalized. But credit rate repayment is not and or recovery is not. And that’s 10 years ago, that was the view and now it’s okay. I think that I thought it would take less. But I think now we’re really in that three to five years and the next three to five years, it’s going to be globally adopted that everything is done via the screen. It’s either a digital communication or negotiation whilst using a mobile interface, or even an app. Some collectors allow you to download apps and to manage multiple files. But yeah, so I am seeing what you’re seeing. Definitely,

6:36
I suppose just you see differences between different sectors, for example, telecommunications being further ahead than financial services versus utilities versus I don’t know, local authorities or local governments or state governments or county counties are those sort of things? Absolutely.

6:51
When we’ve started out in Australia, we’ll focus on car park operations and payday lenders and really like small ticket items, because collectors, they’re happy to handle $5,000 accounts. That’s a good commission for those companies. That’s a good outcome. And when somebody has $5,000, they’re generally going to be probably more responsive to somebody that owes $60 or $600, where they may think, okay, I’ll just deal with that when it gets to the worst part, because eventually we’ll be able to pay it. Some of the mentality of debtors is very interesting for consumers, as we were now asked to call them in in the US. But I don’t see the industry going back, I really see us going forward. And as new communication tools come into play, like WhatsApp, that’s been a prevalent request for many of our customers that how can we actually start engaging with customers on WhatsApp? And we have some really cool chat bots around WhatsApp as well. Yeah.

7:44
I suppose what’s the blend between the feedback I’m always given, I’m talking about digital collections. At some point, you got to talk with someone and you get people get into vulnerable situations, you got to actually, you’ve got to talk with someone? And what’s the blend between 100% Digital sort of automation or digital kind of collections versus having that kind of human touch? And where do you think that sort of best sits in terms of where you draw the line? And then how do you transition from one to the other as well? Yeah,

8:08
our product specifically does the transition really well. So we encourage people for the first 30 to 60 days to really scale out contact as many people digitally as you can see the response rates, and then our system organises that data into who has been responsive, the interaction that they’ve taken through the mobile optimised platform that we provide the debtors, and our creditors, or collection agents and small businesses can actually see that on their version of the IRS platform or their site. And then they’ll organise that, but what I mentioned earlier, it was 60, to 70%, of the workflow was taken care of digitally, I think, and then you’ve got that 40 to 100%, that you’re gonna have to actually interact with some people. And that’s not necessarily because the digital side can’t do it all. And there are many cases where debtors will receive a communication or a notice and they’ll click on a link and they’ll make a payment or enter a payment plan or their dispute that account or they may have already paid it so they’ll be able to upload and provide a copy of that receipt or, or of payment already. But there is circumstances and many where consumers will ignore and that’s when I think when the phone calls start, it actually works two ways. Because as the phone calls start, and you start saying oh collection agents calling, oh, I’ve got a link I can just deal with anyway, it prompts people we notice after the 30 days when phone calls do start with some of our debtors or some of our clients debtors that people will start being more receptive. But there are people that just are generally used to that and that’s an older demographic that beyond the millennial demographic I was talking about where they may not trust a message they may feel like hey, there’s another scam and there are a lot of that we all get 50 emails or a month from click this link or open this PDF it’s just once your emails public it’s incredible.

9:56
That idea around almost like in the marketing world, they talk about priming, right so you You’re prime the message and you’re prime and the message digitally. So then when actually do take you do take action via the letter that goes out or be a telephone call a telemarketing call comes out that they actually know something to go back with how much do you think those ideas around, particularly around marketing can translate into the collections world? Or how much of an opportunity? Do you think that? Yeah,

10:16
that was one of the themes that the ACA event actually they had a lot of around how they have these tick talkers, and these Instagram influencers that talk to you about how to get out of debt, or how to manipulate and get a credit card, and all these types of scammy types of approaches. And one of the things that was really focused on is that collections association is really saying, Go out there and push your brand, show that you’re trustworthy show that you’re here to help those consumers show that you are digitalized, that you have all the tools that you’re there in their face, but you’re also there to help them because they are a person. And I think that’s a really good way to build a brand and to get yourself out there and maybe some trust. But essentially, a lot of these debtors are predominantly probably not mainstream. And when you’re talking about collections in small credit card accounts, it’s unlikely you’re going to reach them through social media, but to have your brand out there still good. And I think one of the most important things is always been Google Mobile, the ability to go on and say, Hey, I got a link from irs.com. Let me check that out. Okay, that’s a legitimate site, there’s a bit of digital footprint is, I think, really important for a lot of collection agencies that don’t even have it. And one of the things that we leverage for them as a white label solution is actually providing them with that digital experience where they don’t have to have their own website. And that’s you small mom and dad debt collections shops that manage a couple million dollars a year in collections, and they don’t have the money to invest in enterprise technology. They don’t have the money to build a website, and they’ve probably got a handful of small businesses I’ve worked with for 20 years. And that’s what they do.

11:53
Certainly keeping up with the number of communication channels is a real challenge, right? That’s just it’s gone crazy, right? Everything from SMS and text messages. Now, you mentioned WhatsApp, but then you do have things like it’s all going until Tik Tok and Snapchat and all sorts of things. I mean, you just have to ask, but that’s where what do you think’s going to come through? Where do you think the future is going to be on that?

12:12
Well, one of the one of the things that we also witnessed at the ACA, and as I keep coming back to that is just because in my mind, I’m visualising all these different types of operations. One of them which I thought was really interesting was skip tracing through social media. So actually find your social media profiles, collects all that data, you have websites like rocket reach, you can go on and put in somebody’s LinkedIn and get all of their information, how they do that I’m not really sure, we do skip tracing through legitimate channels for our customers, as they upload debts, they can elect to skip trace, we’ve thought the social media site was really interesting. And it’s something we’ll probably start to work into the platform in the years to come. But at today, I think that’s going to be a really relevant product, because some people do have prepaid cells that they jump in and out of, but one thing that people are most proud of his social media profiles. So if you are a Gen Z or a millennial, and you’re interacting with friends and family on social media, that’s probably going to be the best place at all times to find them in and in the future, I think that’s going to be more or more prevalent and more focused on as collectors really do adopt to an up and coming generation of digital consumers.

13:20
Yeah, I’m gonna say I took a little bit of a look at tick tock in terms of some of the videos out there were actually quite concerning in terms of either Boring, boring, encouraging people to borrow with like, probably less than you’d have on TV, like it used to be like 10 years ago, or death advice that really wasn’t strong enough. Now a couple of good legitimate firms that are out there offering good kinds of solutions. And it feels like there’s a bit of a gap there. Maybe we need to do more responsible firms getting out there a little bit more in some of these newer platforms.

13:45
Yeah, credit licencing came into effect in Australia, about four years ago, credit licencing for debt collectors, sorry. So there was a the string credit licencing regulators, and then you now have debt management regulators. So to be a debt collector, you have to actually be licenced, like, we have licences in multiple states that we’re required to transact in and we only have those, so we’re regulated from that point of view. But we don’t actually arrears doesn’t do any collections itself. We just have the ability to do so if we want to, under a regulated process. So with all the current and up and coming communication portals and tools and apps, there are opportunities for us to be able to communicate with people in ways that we were never able to before basic SMS and email. It sounds simple to us. But the delivery of those messages the way that the message is scripted, it’s all has to be compliant regulation F that came into effect in November 2022. Yeah, that was a very helpful set of regulation that allowed digital collections operators and digital platform providers like us to really shape a compliant product, but at the same time, that’s a segregated that’s a segregated regulation. To the fair, the Fair Debt Collections Practices Act. So some of the balances really, if you’re an operator doing a traditional managing a traditional collections operation where you want to add digital, you really need to understand how the two regulations do work because they are separate.

15:15
I just wonder how much the regulation itself actually drive digital adoption as well as like the more regulation that seems to come in what regulations don’t seem to be adding additional controls, usually, for the consumer, that usually adds an extra cost in terms of the collections process. And so can you end up having these burgeoning topics or cost curves of which one way to manage that is basically by using digital to get further ahead get earlier those kinds of things, it feels like this is symbiosis between actually regulation, strangely enough, and actually digital adoption, because there’s two sides of the same coin.

15:44
So we’re also fighting communications providers, those communication providers have all banded together and built what’s called the 10 DLC set of rules. And those set of rules actually restrict anybody in the debt collection industry from being a registered shortcode or, or a phone number with those providers providing debt collection, reminders or notices. So there are a lot of issues for collection agencies in an environment where there are really good players, there are people that are here to help small businesses manage their accounts receivable, I hear to help large organisations manage their account recoveries. And also you get those. There’s an industry built around it. There’s 7000, there’s more than 7000 small business debt collectors in the United States. Small business debt collector is noted as a collection agency that manages less than $10 million in collections a year, we have customers that manage three to $4 million a year, and they’re based out of California down the road. And that’s just a couple of guys that have been in business together for 20 years. And that’s what they do. They make their money every year and they support the companies that they work for. And it’s it’s crazy how these large organisations like telcos, for example, cutting off debt collection from utilising the SMS pipes, that’s crazy. The reason they do that is they see it as high risk, and we have issues with payment providers, a lot of customers come to us and say, we can’t do collect, we can’t take online payments, or if we do, it’s costing us 8%, because the providers see it as opportunistic. So we’ve partnered with an infrastructure provider and a bank, and we’ve created a res pay, and that allows debt collectors to come in. And you can either put that on your website, or you can utilise it through the portal as part of your $99 a month subscription. We’ve tried to integrate all of these things that we see as issues. We’ve got other communication channels, like I mentioned, WhatsApp is not regulated WhatsApps direct. 280 million people in Latin America have WhatsApp. America has a very low adoption rate, whether that’s because of trust of matter or what it is. We’re not sure we can’t pinpoint one reason. But I think people trust iMessage over over meta and I this is something we can cater to as well, unfortunately,

17:55
you know, as collections providers, we have to be able to cater for everything, don’t we?

17:58
Absolutely. It’s for us, we’re always looking, how are we going to be ahead of the technology curve? How are we going to be ahead of the compliance that’s chasing that technology curve? And then how can we have everything fully integrated. So our customers have a seamless experience, we’re not constantly shutting things off or having to advise them that something’s not going to be working, we really do strive to ensure that we foresee some of these events coming up. And especially things like the 10 DLC, we were ahead of that a couple of months ago, getting our customers are prepared. And some of them are approved because they aren’t debt collectors, but others, we just have to provide them with a solution that allows them to directly contact iPhones for now,

18:37
as you take a step back, and particularly having come in how much of an opportunity to think there isn’t the US and where do you think that and where do you think that kind of fits? What are the big gaps or the big things that need to be closed off? Or be it portals be a messaging? What are the priorities you think that people got to look at? How big is that? Yes,

18:52
it’s the industry here. So we’re focused on servicing small businesses, small businesses deal with last year $825 million. In late payments, a late payment is seen as a payment that was 30 days after being 30 days overdue, so 60 days overdue. That doesn’t include the money that the collection actions or the accounts that are sent off to collections, that’s just small business internal accounts at 60 days. Where we focus for those guys is really providing them with a fully integrated platform where you can come along, you can sign up, you can start collecting from your own data, you can connect your API, your QuickBooks, your zero, your Oracle, your Salesforce, there are a number of API’s that really just simplify getting that data in and then pushing out messaging and scaling out collection actions. But I think where people are really missing the mark from other as an industry, the gap in the market from where a rear saw is the small businesses don’t have access to enterprise great enterprise, right? Technology. So those small businesses that are just managing their there might be a tenant management company that manages real estate portfolios. It could be just a small business that provides supplies to plumbers or individuals that do services jobs. We have law firms and accounting practices, we have debt collectors, we have a number of people. And the common issue for them is accounts receivable is not the focus of their company, their companies around growth, how do I grow, sustain my business, pay my salaries, pay my office rent, pay my staff pay my suppliers, it becomes like a, I guess for them secondary to what’s a priority, and running a company. And so a rare sits there as an integrated platform that allows you to come in sign up, upload your data, start collecting from your accounts receivable. And then if you do want to go into collections, we have a number of collectors that use a platform we can refer you to some doesn’t require all this mess, which is where small businesses that were servicing are overwhelmed, because they’re not able to really foresee how they can manage a couple of million dollars in accounts that are worth 345 10 $20,000. To them. That’s a lot of different accounts. It’s a lot of different people that they have to deal with whether individuals or businesses. So the gap in the market that we saw, and that we’re seeing that’s getting worse and worse because large organisations are closing down their small businesses money, small businesses are closing down the row, other small businesses money, individuals are running away those small businesses money right now we’re in a stage of the economy where people are a little uncertain. We don’t we do see people do come to us. And they’re worried about investing into technology or adding more to their overheads. But after they understand the product, the workflow, the cost saving and the time saving, they’re really seeing that a platform that with one subscription does the job of five people in collections. They’re really impressed. And it does genuinely help those companies. And that’s what we’re here to do.

21:53
And as with how do you manage it between and you mentioned there around b2b versus b2c? As an example, right? So collections to collecting against businesses or small businesses versus against consumer, they can have slightly different dynamics, because you get to like slightly larger businesses. How do you think that the digital collections process changes between those two groups? It absolutely

22:12
does. You look at business collections as managing an invoice, there’s an outstanding invoice of account a product or a service delivered, versus a consumer collections is there’s a product or service that has been delivered or consumed. And the consumer hasn’t paid for that it could be just a telephone bill, or it could be a power bill, or it could be an iPhone payment that they have made. Those consumers are expected to engage with that make a quick action we’re company they have a process for payments, so they may pay on the 14th of every month. So the communication is really based around a business style collections approach. So predominantly email predominantly addressed to accounts payable, predominantly providing ACH type of mechanisms that these companies are used to some new pay on debit cards, what we see predominant the majority of companies are paying our customers utilising Ach, which is good because digital checks are what people are used to, it’s easy to record it come straight out of their bank account, it’s a no brainer. We’re consumers, they want to jump on and they want to go Apple Pay, double click of pay. And that is a fast, no brainer. No thinking take action in the moment. And a lot of dentists take action because they get the opportunity or they’re sitting there at the time. And they just they know it’s quick. And that’s what consumers expect versus businesses. Businesses need time they need to, especially when small businesses paint a small business, check on the cash flow, can we pay salaries? If not, we might have to put this out a week. That type of interaction is very prominent in the way that businesses deal with our customers and where consumers they just look for quick, double dried or their iPhone, quickly putting the debit card and they’re done.

23:58
And you’re talking about you’re talking about the economy and the economy in the US. How would you characterise what you’re seeing, at least from your clients? Because a lot of talk around the world falling apart typically during the pandemic and it seemed feels like people saved. I think you mentioned earlier that people are starting to spend again, where do you think we’re going from here from an economic point of view? Because certainly in Europe, I haven’t heard a lot around arrears really sticking up massively collections volume necessarily going through the roof yet, but people are certainly worried about it. And maybe there’s some early signs in some sectors. Where do you think we where you think we go, what are you hearing?

24:28
I from our customer’s point of view, what they’re focused on is leaning out their businesses. So where we’re winning good, where we’re winning good clients are where clients have really been receptive to our product is it’s a lean solution to hiring an operator or to having multiple collectors to manage millions of dollars in accounts receivable. They’re also an indication and you’ve got I think it was 700 and something companies have gone into chapter 11 In the US this year versus 200 Last You know that the numbers are there. And you’ve seen, I hate to say this, but you’re seeing the crime rates pushing a lot of companies out of business, you’re seeing the cost of finance, where there’s two differences in American America, they’ll lend you off your balance sheet, they’ll lend you off your cash flow. And basically, you can go to a bank and say, look, and this is what I’ve owned for the last five years or two years or year, this is what I need to borrow. And this is how I’m going to expand my business. They’ll charge you a business loan rate, and that rate will be variable after a couple of years. And now those rates now those costs have gone up so much that a lot of businesses are just focusing on repaying their debt to their bank. We’re in Australia and the UK, you can borrow most small business lending is done against a property. So that’s become interest. It’s an interest rate play from the Commonwealth countries where America, it’s really just a survival play. And these companies are looking at how do I manage my cash flow? How do I ensure that my business can be sustained through the next 12 months or the next 24 months, because we’ve had this 12 and a half or 13 year rally in the markets, it’s every seven to 10 years, we have a bubble burst, that’s just the economics of the market, something’s keeping it going, whether that’s productivity, whether that’s whatever it is, cost of finance has gone up. And I think we haven’t seen the full effect of ban. And a lot of a lot of interest rates are being reset every quarter. And I think that there’ll be a larger number of that towards the end of this year. And we may see some issues around. So

26:35
it kind of feels like people are managing the saving costs to try and manage further, some of that starting to bleed through. But it feels like that’s the early start of the cycle. Maybe rather than

26:46
look at commercial office rent, despite the work from home model. offices, we’re now building, I would say that probably people that I used to see every morning aren’t here anymore. And yeah, those people were in general, professional services companies or operations, that service to large organisations.

27:06
So I got two more questions. One thing we didn’t talk about was AI and there’s a lot of noise has been made, particularly around large language models and predictive predictive text. So what do you think of that? And how do you think that’s gonna get wrapped into the collection of processes like greater personalization, etc? It’s early days, I feel.

27:21
Yeah, when we started out building arrears, one of the focuses was, how do we use generated AI to build chatbots that humanise the collection experience, both on the two way communication flows, we have chatbot that uses SMS and email and other digital channels. And what that chatbot really does, and I love to test it and say, Can you order me a pizza? Because a lot of AI is just an open AI wrap. And you can hack it know that it’s just that by asking stupid questions, and it provides you an answer, there are off the shelf solutions with a very simple script, you can add to your website for chatbots. And they’re just again wraps, I think AI is going to be more and more prevalent, again, back to the digital focus. And this is where it all contributes to the next three to five years of us really seeing this nationally adopted across the 12 Minute, whatever 1000 collection agencies in the United States is the AI side, whether that’s AI, voice bots, whether that’s AI chatbots, whether that’s data sorting, predictive modelling, there are a number of things that we’re already using in our platform, especially from the predictive modelling and the Chatbot side, personalised messaging is really important. And I think that when you’ve got a debt book of 20,000, debtors, and there’s all these different variables across different accounts, ages, incomes, value of account, charged off dates, things like that, the generated AI is actually able to communicate with those debtors in a personalised way and generate a personalised message, hey, we your account was charged off with Chase where we’re just here to help you get that sorted. So you can keep your credibility and not affect your credit score or whatever else. But there’s that side. And then I think there’s the automation side and the automated phone calls. We’re seeing a few providers, and I think there was one that we met at the ACA skip.ai fantastic products. That’s, to me was very interesting. But the thing that I still have an issue with voice bots is that they’re not fast enough to respond, you can get sort of three second delay, people in two to three seconds. It’s things change, we go 123 And we’re waiting. It’s what’s going on here. So it needs to there’s a bit of catch up, that will happen, but I think the LLM and the generative AI is conversational AI is super important. One of the things that we’ve leveraged GPT for is summarises So, in our platform. You can click on an account you can summarise it and it basically reads the whole file and then says to the collector, Trent owes $500 That was this date to date was entered into this day and he’s been communicated with three times he has responded to this message on this day at this time the next message their next communication is scheduled for this time or Converse. Have inversely he’s already made a payment is in a payment plan and it just summarises all the interaction. We’d like that because one of the issues we’ve found with a lot of our customers, especially large or small businesses, is that they have different files and different businesses over them different money. And there may be that they’ll have given terms on something in the past and taken a note, but nobody can find that note, or it’s too far down the trails, that AI is going to be everywhere and as a pathway for small businesses, or RIAs provides a lot of practices in collections for that. And I think it gets people used to that automation, as well. And it’s super exciting. It’s next few years ahead. And what’s coming out is we’ve got open AI and Google battling for who’s got the best and the fastest servers and the GPUs, so it’s all happening.

30:49
So if we’re gonna come back in five years time, let’s say five years time, where do you think the collections industry is going to be?

30:56
The collection industry from a digitalization point of view is always going to be progressing. I think it’ll move faster in the next three to five years. But in five years time, I think it will really have this conversation, you and I would be talking about completely different technology can be anything from a chip that sits here that visualises the account that you need to pay, and you double click your ear, I don’t know, it could be. I’m not that Elon Musk type of forecaster where I’m going to shape the future. I’m just trying to shape a better experience for data so they can pay our customers more efficiently. But back to that, I think we’re going to be having a conversation around the use of automation and credit risk profiling and how people pay things digitally digital currencies, on the way it’s here. And whether it’s a government backed or whether it’s a cloud of built product, it’s here and it’s going to be more prevalent, and I think payment mechanisms are going to be another focus in the near future as well.

31:55
Yeah. Frank, thanks very much for making the time. It’s It’s fascinating. It’s great to hear how it’s rolling out in the US in particular, and some of the challenges and some of the things you’ve learned from elsewhere as well, in terms of definitely seeing an opportunity over there as well. It’s super interesting, just watching out this whole space in terms of how it’s developing really psycho. Thanks.

32:11
Thanks for your time, Chris. The fact you’re doing this and champion industry is great, massive amount of respect, and thank you for having me on.

32:18
Now. You’re quite welcome. Thanks very much.