Speed, Trust and Innovation: Unpacking the Payment Landscape – [FULL INTERVIEW]

0:02
So hi everyone. I’m with Justin Hanna today from acquired got calm, and he’s the head of direct sales as acquired.com. And they’re in their payment and payment processing spaces. So Justin, thanks very much for joining us today really appreciate it.

0:15
No worries. Thanks for having me excited. Suppose

0:17
we’re just chatting in sort of like the pre meeting a little bit about, like how payments have changed, and they’ve changed over time. We talked a bit about direct debit, we talked about CPAs and open banking, but what are you seeing in terms of volume and where the where the current volume is around where the way people are paying to then have you seen that evolve over time?

0:36
Yeah, we’ve seen direct debits for great for 25 years, they were fantastic. And that movement to CPA really allowed businesses to understand what’s going on with payments immediately. Direct Debits are great, but if you’re waiting four to five days to to then realise that a direct debit has failed. What the knock on effect to the customer journey, the call centre process, the collections process just take a little bit longer by enabling CPAs and take them out via card payment. What we’ve definitely noticed is the customer journey and the process is immediate for CPAs failed at one minute past three in the morning. What there’s a lender DCA are able to then act on that immediately. What we’ve now seen moving forward to the last 18 months and open banking or pay by bank is when a CPA fails from a consumers perspective and they receive a notification they can use pay by Bank Open banking immediately. From a consumer perspective, it’s similar customer journey to making a payment, like you’re going through to your bank, like you would infer from a for a car transaction to to authenticate that. However, from a business perspective, the cost of what lenders and TCAS are saving by moving from a car payments open banking is upwards of 6070 80%. And even better than that is they’re able to get that cash flow immediately. It’s not waiting for a car payment funds to take three days to settle their corporate car. Open banking is 2247365. Right so saw makes a payment or repayment, I got the payment on Christmas Day as a lender receiving them funds on Christmas Day, that allows the cash flow to lead back up to the market or collections to be able to then alert back to lenders say that we’ve been able to collect X or Y

2:24
back in the day it was always it was checks, then it was direct debits then it was CPAs. But CPAs got a bit of a bad name is a difference between direct debit, you always felt as consumer you’re in control. And CPAs I think there’s a there’s there was some abuse, I think within the system, I know got clamped down from from the regulator around making sure and they have to make sure it’s much better documented, communicated those kinds of things, once the impact and really hit the adoption of CPAs because it was convenient for people.

2:50
Yeah, I look, we can’t pinpoint it to one end or two, we’ll let the audience speak for themselves. When talks about what lenders may be damaged at that market. However CPAs and a retry logic had a good impact and then a bad impact very quickly. Because what you don’t want is lender attempting to take 400 to 500 times their transactions in a day, which when it links back now to timely consumer duty is and we don’t talk about continuing due to too much because we want the listeners to carry on listening careers is we want the customers to be able to think they’re able to take transactions and in in control of that. However, when it comes to lenders perspective is consumer duty is great. But lenders love business that needs to be able to process what there needs to be a process and work as a business. So if you’re lending out X amount, need to be sure that you’re trying to collect Y amount. CPA allows you to report and reconcile on that quite easily in real time. CPA for me person and the industry that I work in gives control to the lender themselves. But debit gave a lot of control to the end user. And consumer duty in my opinion should allow enable a business to have both so at acquired but what we’re doing is labelling businesses to utilise direct debit followed by a CPA followed by an ad hoc card payment or open banking. And I think it’s given the end user the option.

4:14
I suppose what happened with CPAs is because there’s the card fees like the merchant fees that goes with that from a business point of view, which I mean, so it’s like evolve, hasn’t it. And then since then you’ve got faster payments that have come through that we don’t really talk about and then we talked about it and they acquired podcast that came through and that was quite dramatic in terms of like instant settlement and being able to see that is which is more like the car payment piece was almost like it’s it felt like it was almost like chipping away at the CPA market was you know, Faster Payments came in and then we got open banking one time payments is coming I mean, will the variable recurring payment which is almost like being a bit of a replacement for direct debits, do you think that’s going to be where we’re going to evolve to?

4:55
I think so I hope so, for the cycle open banking providers that have invested hundreds is a millions of pounds into brps? The answer is yes. I think if we look at utopia in the next three to five years as a lender as a, as a borrower, or a debtor is that you’re able to see what someone is able to borrow. You lend out why Faster Payments immediately. It’s an Amazon Prime mindset, right? You want something now, you’re not borrowing now to try and receive the funds in four days time. So if you’re borrowing an amount, you want to receive that amount as soon as possible once the affordability checks have been done. So the consumer borrows the amount I asked him today, because the process gets it later on today. Then when you talk about the collections process, I think, if you’re collecting in the mail, you want to know that on the 15th of July or the 15th of August, at three o’clock because a borrower or lender, that the amount is going to come out your account. This is where we want to get it. Now imagine if before we take your phones out the account by using open banking, the ISP, you check the account first, before you go to take out the old direct debits or the old CPAs. By open banking available reoccurring payments, you’re able to see if the money’s in the account before you take it. This is pure utopia, right? What this means is, you don’t you’d have 100% success rate when you attempt a transaction Lightworks had direct debits is consumer can cancel their direct debits, the dynamic might be 90 to 93%, which is great for CPAs is less. But the immediate impact of that is known if a direct debit is failed, it could take four days, number card payment has failed. It’s instant. But you have to pay fees for that. Visa, MasterCard scheme fees, interchange fees, and the acquirer fees. Now with open banking, where we want to get to more of a bit of a closed loop, right? You check via open banking depends on the account. You take the amount via variable reoccurring payments, which should be cheaper. And it’s real time. This is where we wanted to get to I think, as a lender, don’t try and take the funds out of an account, unless you know the money’s in there. But things back again to the money maybe in there, but can we make sure that we’re doing a job for our borrower? Are we taking the phones that could be being used to something that’s more of a priority than than what we’re trying to take out for? And that’s where it gets interesting with open banking, who’s more important when it comes to pay it out the bills?

7:28
Do you think we’ll ever get to that? I mean, there’s been there’s been some hesitation around open banking adoption, particularly for people in collections, we think we’ll ever get to that which is almost let’s have a quick look at your account five days before the bill is due before the payments due to come out. And let’s almost prompt that pre collection of calls to say. We can see where your bank account is not remember you need to pay in five days, but we can see where your bank account is. We don’t think you’re going to we don’t think you’re going to have enough money left. Let’s have a call. Do you think we’re going to get to that? How do you think consumers will react to that?

8:00
I think as a consumer myself taking my payments, head off it and take them my client had hats off. I think it’s fantastic to be able to say to somebody that may be having problems, we can see you having problems we’re here to help. Where it gets a little bit more complicated is what happens if 10 Different businesses are reached outside consumer at the same time. What that then does, I feel would put pressure on someone to try and prioritise one bill over another, which is already happening today. And consumers are struggling, then to be told by the people that they owe money to that they owe money to. I think it could build unnecessary stress to then put in a consumer into a corner, as do their prioritise the first text that they get from a lender, or collections business or the last one that they receive. So there’s definitely scope out there for it. It’s just understanding. And I know we mentioned our last catch up on podcast one AI, if we try and put that into an AI perspective, and you’ve got a chatbot reaching out, because even more stressed because empathy has been received. So I think in the long run, businesses will start looking to use open banking to reach out to customers for customer processes. We can see your account you have a bill of 400 pounds. If you are struggling, reach out to us. Now businesses are doing that today but not doing it via via open banking. They’re just due to reach out, see if they can help with payment plans. Cost of living. The last three years we’ve COVID has really expedited this customer care process. So do you know what your bill is coming out? Please reach out to us if you are struggling. Now what’s gonna happen is when a business has reached out to say your bill has come in and we know you can’t afford it. How does one lender or one business try to prioritise what is owed to them compared to another business and that’s where it gets really tricky when it comes to looking after the consumers.

9:56
It’s going to be tricky because we already know that consumers are busy juggling juggling what bills to pay when and when to do it versus not? And sort of that if you get access to that information, will that sort of, you know, become even more intense than it is now. But it is an interesting in terms of flagging some of those things and having productive sort of supportive conversations a little bit earlier.

10:16
Yeah, absolutely. I think it businesses out there, we’re using aisp to help customers. I think that’s absolutely fantastic. So we noticed that you’re having problems, let’s have a conversation, see how we can help you. Like said that the problem is, is every business thinks they should have no conversation with the consumer, it then pose unnecessary stress on somebody that is already in stress.

10:41
I suppose just in terms of open banking payments, obviously, there’s there’s a fee, there’s a fee associated with that. But the other thing we don’t really talk about is the whole back end reconciliation piece, when you mentioned it in terms of mission in terms of direct debit, I remember the Return Payment reports that were come through. And like processing those from finance using a piece of paper two or three days afterwards, and then having to call them we’re getting early notification to then have to call them around return payments, and it doesn’t make it that much more instant. And also then embedded within the system as well. So is that how much are people responding to that as a potential benefit? Because that was always another benefit. We didn’t talk about paying by card, which was it goes directly against the account. It hasn’t happened systematically. Whereas direct debit or cheque payments was didn’t really,

11:25
yes, really interest, we were a couple of lenders and the conversation I have with customers is they have a direct debit provider, debit card gateway provider, they have an acquiring card provider, an open banking provider, they have a CRM provider, and then you’ve got six different businesses and five different businesses where you’re taking payments from have to try and talk to the one CRM at the same time as a lender, how do you manage five to six different relationships? How do you try to understand the cost? What happens if something goes wrong? Who do you speak to, and that’s even before it reaches your CRM tool, and hit your bank account, which then they have tried to manage the backwards and reverse engineer house and hit your account, and you spend all his time as a detail lender and getting the funds. The customer then pays and you actually spend more time and more money reconciling when it hits your account. And this is a plug on acquired, what we’re trying to achieve here is a one stop shop, right? Debit provider card payment gateway card acquiring services, open banking provider. And then when you’ve got an agreement in place with a consumer, every single transaction is against that reference number. For that borrower, that’s what you want to be able to achieve. The problem is that we’ve got some products like debit 25 years old, and we’ve got open banking products that are a year old. Each has different API’s connected into different CRM into different reporting tools. And it’s really difficult I think for especially for finance team to really understand what payment was linked to what and how it links to a CRM tool. And people are spending too much time having to do that. I recently was working with a bank. And they mentioned that they will have a nine people reconcile payments, nine people. And you have all these different payments, who said that their job is to come in as a nice and sexy API to make life a lot easier. It’s not a lot easier if you’ve got nine people reconciling payments. I think it’s not just from a tech perspective, understanding what the tech team has won. It’s understanding what the finance teams wants, and how can we try to balance out on way these conversations. So when it comes to your payment providers, whether they’re given your direct debit provider, or a open banking provider, I think the job of all payments businesses to understand the whole ecosystem. And we are very lucky here at acquired to have an open banking licence and a card payment functionality with the FCA regulated, but not every single business has that and we recognise that. So it’s really trying to understand what’s different issues that finance teams are having for reporting exfoliates and payments,

13:56
yes, because it strikes me that it’s not just about speed of payment, but it’s also about speed of processing and that speed of internal process as well. So it’s that spirit end to end speed that’s important. Or as we speak, we tend to focus a lot on instant payments, which is given and taken now, which is why we all went to cards anyway or we went to direct bank payments. But that back end process is also important too, as well.

14:19
Yeah, we conducted some research across your work with over 150 lenders here at quiet. And we did some research around the average cost of a failed direct debit that was 27 pounds 30. But every single failed direct debit. So when we link back the cost of direct debits which people say to cheaper, right, we know that but the cost of the failed died and the 27 pounds, as opposed to a CPA for example, which is initiated by the lender may cost you this is one pound 50. So the cost of the front end isn’t always necessary what the cost of the back end is. So you might have a car payment cost more, but you’re able to report a reconcile on that quick delay compared to a cheaper direct debit, which then may cause issues when you’re looking to collect. So there’s pros and cons, right? There’s the cons. Of course, we’ve CPAs as the cost. We know that car payments are more expensive than direct debits. But there’s a reason why people move CPA years ago. But there’s also reason why businesses are offering CPAs and direct debits. So if didomi fails, you don’t attempt to CPA, then there’s a custom process off the back of that to ensure how you try to click them vendors by different payment methods, text messages, emails, WhatsApps customers slept on a payment link, and make the payment without having to speak to somebody to chase a payment, it goes back to this whole AI conversation around does it need AI? If you’re saying someone, we’re really sorry, because you missed your payment to select them this link and make a payment. That way, from a business perspective is not people’s time, but it’s not FTS, is automated, some slips on the link that paid by Apple Pay or open banking. And the payment then sends a request information back to the CRM provider say, this payments not being complete.

16:04
It’s quite interesting. So you almost got a little bit, there’s almost like a fees argument in terms of what particular channel costs more or not to the tickler finance providers an extension, for example, card fees, payment processing fees, those kinds of things. And that’s one lens to look through, you’ve then got the processing cost, as you said around return direct debits, the cost of return direct debits, the cost of making payments, and then you’ve got a customer angle. But what do you see in terms like customer preferences? What are the secrets of success in terms of preferring one over the other because I can see it from a company lens, they’ll say, look, I want the one’s going to have the lowest cost, but you just made the argument. So don’t just look at fees, look at total cost, because you look at like Bounce, bounce direct debits as an example. So that’s that’s a cost argument, what the customer preference? And what do we need to do to make sure that people are getting the right payment channels that are the right for the customer,

16:55
I think if we look at convenience as consumers ourselves, if I was on a website, and I was borrowing an amount or going through a process, and it asked me for my card details, or outcomes, my bank details I would like to do, I would think that 70% plus people just put in the car details, because they do that all day every day, people very rarely putting their bank details for a direct debit unless normally they know there’s a die that are happening. Now once you put in them details, we do not care. I think as a consumer, if it’s a direct debit, or standing order or CPA comes at your bank account once a month. It’s all about their consumer during the very beginning. Now I think firstly, I say your card details for most Apple users, and he’ll use the site on your phone already. So say detail card ending blah, blah, blah, are you happy to use this card select? What it doesn’t say is here your bank details? Are you happy to use your bank details. So I think from a sign up perspective, consumer journey, I would think people would prefer a car payment because your car deal details can be saved. However, with the use of open banking now, ISP POSB imagined him it said, we will set up a payment against your bank account, select here, you select it takes you through to your banking app, you agree that you want someone to take their pay on a monthly basis. And then you go back to say thank you this is setup. So very much consumer driven. However, I think personally, that most people would pay via a card paying CPA than direct debit if given the choice.

18:31
Yeah. So do you think that’s driven by it’s almost like familiarity, the fact that we’re doing it whenever we’re purchasing things online, will tend to we’ll tend to gravitate towards credit cards or debit cards, because that’s what we’re used to. That’s what we’re trained to do rather than bank which says, that’s the alarms go off and say, look, here’s my bank details, we’re going to be more careful instead, do you think that’s a consumer training piece, because whenever I’ve done is actually as easy if not easier, doing it through my bank as it is doing it through my credit card. I know it’s cheaper as well from an end user from an end user or a creditor point of view. Yeah, I

19:05
think look for the credit, it’s going to be cheaper for us open banking, if I was given the option, honestly, it would just depends on that day. And I think that’s where we want to get to because the UK especially has been very much driven by a car payment options. Whereas open bank as it used to look at the HMRC. Right, if you go to pay your tax, you kind of pay bill HMRC. You can use open banking, pay by bank, if you could have your AmEx, the first payment option now is Amex pay pay by bank. So I think as pay by bank becomes more and more common in the UK, there will start to be a switch over where people are more than happy to go to their bank to make the payment. As we go through authentication payments, authenticator payments today, when you use a car payment, it says, open up your banking app to approve this transaction. People are getting more and more used to just using their bank accounts. So I think there will be a move from car payments to open banking. What’s more people get used to us everyday way like paying my pay by bank.

20:02
It’s just interesting how the whole sort of psychology around like training us to use it is actually important element as much as the actual technology itself to certain extent. I’m sure the same thing happened from direct debits to, to card payments with credit cards came in, it was like it becomes more convenient. And then it’s gradually takes over does that training elements?

20:20
Definitely, I think it’s a trust piece as well. I think if you’d said to people, 10 years ago, you’d be paying for your dinner without putting in your pin number. Most people would not believe you, they think it was fraud, I’m not going to pay for something just like my card and tapping on a screen. The same way. Now if someone can use that photo to take the pavement, it definitely is trust. And it’s, it’s the user journey people get comfortable with that. And people could be nervous on openly given their bank details, or someone going into their bank and making a payment. In five years time as I look back and be like, I can’t believe I wasn’t happy with someone going to my bank app to make the payment. Because they’re always going to they can see what they want by card details or bank details. Can we do the same with evil?

21:04
I remember I was in the card industry at the time around contactless payment came in. And like people were saying, there’s gonna be there’s going to be rampant fraud everywhere. There’s nobody can do it, the floor limit was set super low in terms of when you could do it. And now it’s almost an hour, it’s up to what 100 pounds. And people are sort of like fighting. And it’s still not enough. You can’t do it. Because it’s not enough. It’s almost like we’re just treating it as normal everyday things. But there was a lot of resistance and a lot of resistance in the media. Again, it was a trust thing, isn’t it?

21:30
It really is interesting, I think I look at people get concerned around chargebacks is the biggest reason the card industry is how can I prove that consumer was there when that payment was made. So if you look at contact, there’s no one’s putting a PIN number, I could pick up a card on the floor, and I’m gonna use it right now. And people are nervous about that. However, I think the banks have definitely put in more trust in their own fraud tools. And listening to consumers when they talk about how a transaction has or hasn’t happened, and understanding behaviour. And I think the technology now to understand the behaviour of a consumer is what’s allowing the banks to make better decisions. So we’ve I’ve been going out tonight, I go for dinner, I go for a drink at one club, go for a drink at another club. And then I tried to say that I didn’t pay for drinks at the next club, they can look at the consumer behaviour behind them, well, actually, there’s a very big chance that you were there. Now chargebacks, normally down to the merchant to prove that the customer wasn’t there, as opposed to the customer prove that they were there. So it’s really interesting with contactless and the impact that it’s had and the dynamics, it’s hard on people proven or not proven. When a transaction was made. With open banking. It’s pretty simple. Right? We know that it was you that made the transaction, Chris, because you opened up your phone at this time. You don’t want him to your Barclays Bank and up at this time, face recognition, facial recognition was at this time you agreed to make that payment. That’s not don’t for the merchant to prove that it wasn’t you, Chris that made the payments, because they’ve got everything that shows it was you.

23:04
And I suppose from an authentication point of view, it’s almost like it’s much more embedded in the process. You’re saying whereas this was even on what’s this 3d secure in terms of contactless, you have to have extra protocols on top, which is probably cameras in stores. It’s verification through your telephone app. And that’s where you see all of those things, isn’t it? But we’re saying for open banking, that stuff just embedded anyway,

23:27
I look, when we look at strong part authentication, it’s class. And it’s two or three different dynamics that you need for SCA. And open banking allows you to do that because you have your phone that is similar to having a card. And then the biometrics of your face is similar to having your pin number. So there’s just the same as me going into a shop in my car and then putting the pin number as opposed to paying the transaction with my phone and through biometrics.

23:53
And where do you think we go from here? And I suppose I’m thinking particularly around the level of information that’s available. We talked about account information, bank account information through open banking, but are we using enough of that information today? Where do we go from here? And even things like transaction detail, for example, as I’m one call the other week, and we’re talking about how you can use transaction detail to them really understand, see what people are purchasing, but there’s potential fraud, and there’s, there’s all that information starting to be used? Is it being used enough? Where do we go?

24:23
Is it being used enough? I think it’s there, but it’s not being used enough right now. I think you’d be looking at again, at affordability and vulnerability checks. At the minute, we’re waiting for the credit for 1080, which could take 30 days up to 90 days right to report back and individual. For me personally use an open banking ISP, we need to check in real time, if we’re really gonna be caring for consumers to understand if a customer can really afford what they’re trying to buy. That’s my thoughts on the IoT of open banking. That will then allow us before we take payments, to really try and understand a customer’s behaviour. We’re not using enough data on consumers However, goes back to the AI piece and machine learning is, are we trying to make decisions, we’re having conversations. And sometimes you need to have conversation with somebody to really understand what they’re going through. When it comes to the payment process and information that’s gone through from a consumers perspective, it’s your card details, and you’re telling the payment provider to take the money from your account put into the corporate card, very simple. From the corporate business and the business, they want to make sure that the customer is fully aware of the money that’s about to come out of their account, and how long is it going to take to hit that corporate account? So I think there’s definitely an education piece that needs to be heard. And we’re trying here required as consultants to really ensure that business understand the whole payment journey. So from the technical gateway all the way through to settlement of phones, who does that hit between that ecosystem, an ecosystem is something that businesses over years just think it’s payments, and they go to their bank, and a bank gives them a facility to take payments. It’s so much more than that. So if we take CPAs as an example, if there’s a decline, why is there a decline. And we weren’t in many businesses that some of their declines data, lost, stolen expired cards, there’s something you can do about that. So he’s teaching the businesses that if a card has declined, really understanding information as to why and sometimes the declined transactions are actually more interesting than the accepted transactions. Except transactions are great. And when he recover, if a transaction is declined, why is it declined? And what can you do as a business without having to speak to your customer in the first instance, to still try and reclaim them funds back?

26:37
And that’s really important. That’d be like the recovery process around how do you represent the card or follow up to gather additional information? How do you, for example, expire at expiry dates might have changed or have a cut the CVV CVC date on that number on the back might have changed because you want a new card as an example those kinds of things.

26:56
Correct. And, as I mentioned, declined reasons declined transactions are more important than executive actions, and what can you do as a business to learn from their mistakes? We will talk about counter data, right? Lost older expired cards as a business. Why have they lost old and expired cards to them? reattempt the transaction when you can automate that? I say it’s simple. It’s only simple if you know it. Right. I couldn’t agree more that by understanding everything on a transaction from a business perspective, will allow you to ensure you’re giving your customer the right journey with you.

27:32
Okay, so he’s brought it right up to date. Hello from bankings. We’re waiting for variable recurring payments has come out and the other news piece I caught the last couple of weeks was around was it is it Bitcoin? Or is it the central bank digital currencies, which I suppose is chained digital currencies as almost like this cash replacement, Digital Cash replacement? That’s right, being discussed now, amongst payment providers? Do you have any kind of views on that? I think the thinking was that it’s a potential replacement for cash is a digital replacement for cash, just like open banking to certain extent has eaten into the CPA market or the card by pay pay by card market? Will digital currencies eat into the in the ether into the open banking market? I don’t know if you’ve had any thoughts on that or where we are? Because it comes with no fees, right? It really comes with no fees. It’s like cash.

28:24
Yeah, and I think Greek coins is a good term. I think when we look at consumers in the lending sector, and the DSS sector cashes to the forefront of people’s minds, and direct debits to still being hammered, right. So talk about dark goes around for 25 years, open banking is just getting started. If we look at what Britain’s going to do with this whole CBDCs, it could be five to 10 years away. However, what I definitely have seen happen is something that people think of an idea, and 20 years ago would have taken 10 years to integrate that idea. However, an idea now can happen very quickly and be integrated very quickly. I definitely wouldn’t put my house on it. However, I think from a customer journey perspective, I would say probably one step at a time. Open banking has been around for a long time already. And people are still not too sure on it. I think if I asked my mother what she thought CPC, she thought I’d talk about CBD oil. Right. And that’s still new to her. I think there’s a lot still to be had in that space. But I think for right now it’s VRP to be the future of recurring payments for next three to five years. Once the banks are ready.

29:31
It’s interesting how the speed of adoption in our mind is so much quicker than the speed adoption reality. I mean, even like, contactless card payments as an example or Pay By Phone, remember that I mean, I remember that first first being proposed, it must have been, what, 15 years ago, even longer and like it just takes time. Almost like as human beings. It takes time for us to come to terms with some of these things and then actually, for them to actually get adopted and maybe that’s the trust piece that we need. Just need to concentrate a little bit more

30:00
Yeah, it definitely is trust, I think ecommerce payments still new. It’s been very innovative and it’s come a long way. And I would be shocked in 15 years of people are still using direct debits, like checks 20 years ago. And then you look at direct debits minus look at in 15 years car payments have been a thing of the past. With open banking, I think in the UK, we predominate use car payments. But if you go to other countries, you actually Netherlands, most people use something called ideal, which is a bank transfer. And it’s part of everyday life. If you look at WeChat pay in Asia, it’s part of everyday life. So UK gotta move forward very quickly with it, but people still have that kind of trust with their card in their wallet.

30:42
Yeah. And honestly, one of the barriers and we didn’t chat about it was almost like micro payments. So it’s almost like they wish you’d wish people still use cat cash for so it’s like the pound here. It’s the pound for parking, those kind of things. And we’re starting to see that now with contactless payments coming through and debit cards. But I think, is anything holding us back on that? Do you think open banking or these things that take a little bit of inertia to set through? Is that an area where you think maybe digital currencies might actually help?

31:08
No, I think if I went and jumped in a London cab right now and said, Do you want card or cash, they’re gonna say cash. And there’s two reasons behind this. One, they don’t pay the 2% fee. And two, they don’t want to wait four days for their money. That is the ODPs. Now do you say to a taxi driver? Can I scan this QR code? And the phones will come directly from my bank account to sit and go into your bank account within 30 seconds? They will bite your hand off that opportunity? Yeah. So it’s cost and it’s speed with most businesses as to why they want to move away from cars and to open banking. But if you go speak to every single business has taken open bank, and they’re still in the process of taking car payments, because they want to give their customers the option. Yeah.

31:57
Well, it’s fast developing this whole space is fast developing, and he’s changed even the last five years. It feels like it’s really changed. And it sounds like there’s a few big developments around the corner. Right now. So So Justin, thanks very much for making the time. Really appreciate it. And the fascinating is ever.

32:12
Perfect. Thanks for your time, Chris.

32:14
Thanks. Thanks.