Burnout to Balance: Insights and Strategies for Modern Leaders – [FULL INTERVIEW]

In this conversation with Deborah Bulcock, an executive coach, we discuss her insights on transitioning from corporate life to running her own coaching business since 2018.

She discussed the challenges of balancing marketing, sales, and client work, emphasizing the importance of networking and finding effective business development strategies.

Reflecting on her work we also discuss covered stress, burnout, and the impacts of remote working. An advocate for self-awareness, incremental change, and seeking support to manage stress effectively, Deborah explains here perspective, sharing some techniques to help.

Find out more about Deborah Bulcock -> Here.

Key Points

  • Deb Bulcock transitioned from corporate life to executive coaching in 2018.
  • The move from a structured corporate environment to self-employment introduced new challenges.
  • Balancing marketing, sales, and service delivery is a significant challenge for entrepreneurs.
  • The importance of networking and LinkedIn as a powerful tool for business development was highlighted.
  • The discussion touched on the common issue of trying to manage all business aspects alone.
  • Stress and burnout are prevalent issues, exacerbated by remote working conditions.
  • Stress-related absence has reportedly increased since the COVID-19 pandemic.
  • Burnout and stress are distinct but related issues, with burnout representing a more severe stress manifestation.
  • Self-awareness and incremental change are crucial in managing stress and avoiding burnout.
  • The role of leadership in setting expectations around work habits and remote working policies is critical.
  • The importance of nutrition and understanding the body’s response to stress was discussed.
  • The conversation emphasized the need for a balanced approach to technology and work to maintain mental health and productivity.

Key Statistics

  • Stress-related absence has increased since COVID-19, according to health and safety executive data.
  • Burnout is characterized by severe physical and mental exhaustion, significantly impacting individuals’ professional and personal lives.

Key Takeaways

  • Transitioning to self-employment requires adaptability and resilience.
  • Effective time management and prioritization are essential for business success.
  • Building a strong network is crucial for business development and sustainability.
  • Entrepreneurs should focus on their core strengths and outsource secondary tasks.
  • Recognizing the signs of stress and burnout early can prevent severe health implications.
  • Leadership plays a vital role in shaping workplace culture and expectations around work-life balance.
  • The integration of technology in work should be managed to prevent burnout and maintain productivity.
  • Nutritional awareness and self-care practices are important for managing stress.
  • Incremental changes and small steps can lead to significant improvements in managing stress and work-life balance.
  • Trust and flexibility in remote working arrangements can enhance employee engagement and productivity.
  • Understanding personal stress responses and triggers is key to effective stress management.
  • Leadership should focus on engagement, motivation, and skill development to enhance workplace effectiveness and satisfaction.
Interview Transcript

Hi, everyone, I’m here with Deb Bulcock. Today and Deb’s a an executive coach, Deb. Deb, welcome. And we know each other for from a long time back, actually, you’re doing executive coaching now. So I suppose the good first question to start, have you found that kind of transition really to doing what you do now? I suppose, since when? 2018.

Yeah, around 2018. I’ve been working in this capacity. And I was trying to remember, I think it’s 2012 time when we, I think, when we work together, so yeah, a lot. Lots of difference between obviously working in a big, big teams, big infrastructure, with lots of support around you in a big organisation to become an executive coach, when it is just just you and your business, and you’re doing everything, that that transition has been quite interesting. And it was actually never the plan. For me, my plan was to I’ve fallen into my career, but did oriented here and enjoyed it, but was ill health kind of spit me out of that a while ago, and took me on a bit of a winding path, really, to where I’ve got to where I am now really enjoying what I’m doing. I’m really in a business that feels sustainable. So I think I went from one kind of roller coaster, which is in corporate life, which a lot of you will know, and lots of people watching this will know, to a different sort of roller coaster, which is the self employed one.

So you go from being surrounded by people and experts, and you’ve got a challenge and you pick up the phone to someone to say, Hey, I’m struggling with this, can you help me What expertise and important you’ve got people who, you know, you delegate to,

to into that place where you’re, I’ve got a source all of this stuff out for my self now when you’re selling your services, rather than being in a salaried role. So it’s really different. But and that’s twists and turns me along the way. One of the challenges when you’re running your own businesses is managing time and managing time splitting time between marketing activity, we’re just chatting about LinkedIn posts as an example, marketing activity, sales activity, and then delivery activity. And how do you manage that in terms of trying to find the right balance? Really?

I think that’s really tough. I think it’s the golden question, really. So I would, I would say, from a coaching point of view, like I didn’t get into coaching, because I wanted to do business development, I mean, coaching, because I want to do the work with people. So doing business development, and sales and marketing has been a really steep learning curve for me. But obviously, in the early days of business, I was spending a significant majority of my time in the business development space, because I didn’t have any clients at that point in time.

And it was therefore not as enjoyable for me, in those early days, because I was doing a little bit of what I was really wanting to do. And doing a lot of what I needed to do to build a business, which hasn’t isn’t actually what I found enjoyable.

I feel in quite a fortunate position where I’m sat today, because the balance has swung the other way. So the majority of my time is with clients, I get support for some of my marketing activity. But I have a I also feel like I’ve found what works for me in terms of business development, and marketing, as opposed to try and everything, which is what you do at the start. Yeah, my network is really crucial. And LinkedIn is a really powerful channel.

And how common Do you think that is just going to almost like the coaching side of things, which is one of the things that that we can tend to do as humans is try and do all right. So as and that becomes really apparent when you’re running your own businesses, you have to do everything, you’re you’re cleaning the office, you’re making sure you’re doing the marketing, doing the sales, you’re doing your finance, you’re doing your expenses, and you’re doing deliveries as well. And you’re right. So even in a larger company, you get some people do that for you. And actually having a good team of people who compliment you is really a good sort of like leadership trait. How common Do you think you find that, particularly your coaching business around people trying to do everything and not recognising that they need support maybe in areas where they’re not quite a strong I

think it’s really common, isn’t it, whether someone’s self employed or in a big organisation that does come up as a common coaching topic as well around helping people to let go.

And one of my mottos as a self employed person, now that I’ve actually I’m in a position to be able to invest in things is do what you do best and outsource the rest. So that’s something that I really focus on. Whether that’s about getting someone to help you with admin, or whatever it is. So I think it applies really neatly in the self employed space, but obviously you’ve got to be earning you’ve got to be generating some revenue to be able to invest in those things. So to start with, most people are doing it for themselves. But

I think if we apply that into the leadership space where people are in a leadership role in a big organisation, quite often, we still hang on to things that we could delegate that we could assign. And there can be all sorts of reasons for not doing that for keeping hold of it yourself. And that might be around people, maybe wanting some additional control the fear of delegating it is your comfort zone, rather than you focusing on what you should be doing at that level. There’s all kinds of things that come into that, that we end up talking about in coaching as well. So people can be operating in the right space in the role that they’re in? And how do you find in terms of trying to get people over that barrier, because

excuse me, one of the things you can say, I don’t want to pay appearing weak is one of the things that can actually be out there. So you want to appear like you know, everything, rather than feeling if I feel like I don’t know anything, maybe that makes me look, as if, as if I’m some weak within a leadership point of view, which is not necessarily the case. But how do you get people over the back so they can then delegate or say, I don’t know this, and someone else needs to do and do it within the team and trusting your team?

I guess it’s like most any problem that you could come across with any topic. It’s trying to get to the root cause of why is that behaviour in place? And sometimes there might be very practical, legitimate reasons, like do you know why my team is under significant stress, or we’ve got 2% vacancies in leadership roles, and it just doesn’t feel right to lay a more pressure on. So sometimes it can be very practical things. But more often than not, it is something that’s related to confidence or comfort or fear.

See also  Decisioning, Data : Using the Right Tools - [FULL INTERVIEW]

And there isn’t just a one a one way, so identifying what the actual root cause of that behaviour is the first thing, and then challenging that, and testing new ways of doing things and finding out the steps someone’s willing to take to try something

is the way to move it forward. But I guess what I was gonna say is in coaching, as long as you’ve got that trust that between you that withstands challenge, you’re able to do that. And that’s one of the critical factors that when you’re there as coach or someone’s choosing a coach is to make sure that you’ve got a level of respect for them that you trust them that you know, they’re not going to hold you in judgement for anything that you say. And that allows you to cut to the chase a lot quicker, and start moving things forward.

And I know you’ve written a couple of books now as well, one, would you like confidence confessions? I think it’s the new one that’s just come out. And he had wrote another one around. So stress and burnout, I think, originally, which is on Amazon as well, which I did see that. So I’ll give you

the link the link below. How have you found that in terms of particularly since then, when you read the first one, we’ve been through the whole sort of pandemic? Haven’t we been locked down? You can’t get out of people doing things much more online? Are you finding that people’s levels of stress, burnout, confidence are changing? Since you’ve been doing coaching?

Has it changed?

So if you look at some of the data that exists, which I always just take as a baseline, because when you look at say, like stress related absence, or what have you that’s reported. I always think it’s going to be underreported isn’t it was gonna be underreported, because there’s still stigma associated with it. So people don’t, aren’t always truthful about the reason for absence. But during COVID, it really peaked. And it started to come down, but reported, stress related absence is still at a higher level than it was pre COVID. So if you look at some data, so like from the health and safety exec or CIPD related data, you’ve got those sorts of trends going on, which I think tell us could tell us a couple of things that could tell us that stress is actually higher than it was before or it could tell us that people are more comfortable talking about stress and putting that down as the reason for absence just because of the advancements that have been made about talking about this stuff. It could look a couple of ways. But in terms of what people talk about, with me, I

and I guess I should

I should just qualify this. So the kind of people I work with are usually like senior leaders in large, complex organisations, big responsibilities. Usually 40 poss often have family families and so life is busy. So there’s a lens to look at my comments through in terms of the kinds of people I am sourcing information from.

But I think stress levels are the when that population of people are just as high if not higher, because the demands are still there. People are still working really long hours. Back to Back meetings, no time for breaks, certainly no prioritisation of round breaks, the mental agility and the cognitive requirement is really significant. And I

Think that’s just got greater that demand during this period, because we’re obviously in an environment where companies are being more cost conscious.

Again, so I don’t see that going away at all. Quite often people turn up to their coaching sessions with me. And it’s the first time probably in two weeks, they’ve just stopped to think.

Yeah, it certainly felt we’re doing a lot of remote work, I noticed we all started getting on teams, and we started doing remote kind of calls. And we went through this change, and there’s a conference call and it was all on audio, and we didn’t want to put our videos on, then we got used to putting our videos on. And then the meetings went from an hour to half an hour. And then right at the end, where we’ve been doing it for two years, it was down to 50 minutes. And it kind of it kind of felt that the people seemed to be almost like more stressed, doing it remotely, because it was back to back and you’ve lost some of that sort of time, just almost let thoughts mature in your mind, then say, well, this is what we need to do, because it was just constant all the time. And we’ve come out of that. But it’s, it doesn’t feel like it’s gone back to the way it was before where you’d have a meeting before and you’d have a bit of time and you have a bit of quiet time, then busy time to like really almost like walk at a human pace, rather than than as this sort of like hyperintense kind of paste. I’m not sure if that’s fair. It might just be the people I interact with or what I see or how I’ve seen it. I don’t know if that’s fair in terms of it feels like something’s changed.

I don’t know, interested observation. So I can say with absolute certainty that

every single one of my clients has their think time is in their personal time. Definitely not.

They are absolutely, you know, back to back, no stories of not even having a loo break. Really full on. But interesting that that was always my experience as well, from years ago, that there there wasn’t that space between things. So

has it changed the doing things on zoom on teams has definitely changed things, hasn’t it? And it is more intense than being in a meeting like this. And really concentrating does take more cerebrally from you than being in an in person meeting. So if you’re doing this backpack all day, it’s a lot more draining, arguably than it would be in an in person setting. But even the fact that you’re not walking from one meeting to another. So even if you were back to back in an office, it’s unlikely you’ve got the same meeting in the same room. So you do often want to do something and even that could give you the break that you don’t get when it’s in a team environment. Exactly. You’re going down to the canteen, or wherever it is gives you a little bit of a mental break. It was the it’s more than having three meetings at the same time that the get the get that it gets tricky. I suppose I was leading me into the themes really around burnout and stress and those kinds of things in terms of what you’re seeing around that, from what I suppose I’ve seen is certainly the last I’d say.

Since the summer, and particularly over Christmas, it feels like the pressure is going up again. We’re seeing potentially even in the industry, there’s more layoffs now than there have been historically it feels like that’s starting to feel filtered through we’ve been going through things like cost of living those kinds of things. So it feels like that pressure is increasing. What are some of the warning signs around burnout, stress, and then maybe a little bit around? So what are some of the things to think about those. So I guess stress and burnout are obviously quite often talked about in the same breath. And whilst they overlap, they are different things. So stress is something that we experience we perceive

stress isn’t all bad. Stress has a bad reputation. But some stress is good, and it can really help us to form. But obviously heightened stress levels over an enduring period, it disrupts our physiology leads to longer term health impacts. So we know that’s a difficult thing. And quite often people talk about that cardiovascular health associated with that. But there are really significant links to things like gut health, mental health, light hormone health, it just impacts every system in your body under stress and can disrupt things.

And as a result, symptoms of stress when it’s becoming a problem can be really varied. When you talk about warning signs, it’s quite so in my book I talk about this is a whole list of warning signs that you could be watching out for and it can range right through from digestive related issues to someone experiencing migraines to someone feeling tired all the time, it can be really varied. So the trick with something like stress and understanding it is understanding how you manifest stress. So knowing what your stressors are and how you respond to it, and then being able to tune into those things is really important. So there are some obvious things are that people might talk about muscle tension or like getting tight or emotionally not

haven’t enough patients as they might do, but it’s just significantly greater than that. And I think me training as a nutritional therapist before I became a coach. And it really helped me to understand all of that. So quite often someone will enter session all the talking about, I’m not sleeping, and I’m going to the doctors because I’ve got IBS, dun, dun dun and health company. There’s a root cause in all of this, and it is probably stress related. So, early warning signs, I know that’s not a straightforward answer, but it isn’t straightforward.

See also  Digital Transformation: Improving Value Exchange - [FULL INTERVIEW]

Burnout for me, because I guess I’ve experienced it myself. And I’ve helped lots of other people with it. I think, at this point in time, I’m seeing burnout, the term burnout being misused a lot, and therefore I think it’s misunderstood. So quite often, people when they’re very tired, say that they’re burned out. When I experienced burnout, I was bedridden for nearly three months. My sis like systems were shutting down, I wasn’t functioning properly at all. So if you feel tired on a Friday, and you’re okay, by Monday, I’d say that’s fatigue, and it needs addressing, and it’s really important, but it’s not burnout.

But you might be on the road to burnout. Because if that’s continually the case, which it was for me, that that’s where you end up. So I’m finding burnout stats quite hard to follow at the moment, because they’re not necessarily measuring stress rather than burnout.

And what have you, but burnout is it is an issue, but it’s a combination of I say, like the environment you find yourself in

the pressures that you’re under, but also how you respond to that. The ways of tackling burnout have to be about you’ve got to have a level of self awareness, you’ve got to understand what your stresses are, how you respond to stress, how you manage stress, how you recover from stress. And similarly, you’ve got to understand the same for resilience. But how do you build personal resilience, and that can look different people.

So a lot of it is about that self awareness. And it’s why I wrote the book in the first place to say, look, this is not uncommon. This happens to lots of people. You’ve got to understand this stuff about yourself. And I do think the work environment has quite a role to play in all of this. But ultimately, it is, I do see it as a personal accountability. Because stress comes from all angles of life, doesn’t it? It’s not just work related.

I do think that the increase in people’s appetite for understanding of like just the health, just health and wellness and how to look after themselves and the explosion of health related information is working? Well, I would say I think that’s making a difference in some way, shape, or form.

But I think the workplace element is a really, I think, a tricky topic, I probably have some controversial views on that. But thinking about how you can influence this stuff in the workplace.

It’s a bit of a double edged sword, I think it feels at the moment, because on one hand, you’ve got much better recognition of terms like stress as an example of burnout, or even other kinds of stresses that we have on our on our own psychology and as much better understanding recognition around that within the workplace, and just generally within society as well. And I think we’re recognising and more on people are much more sympathetic than they ever used to be when I was when I was younger, 20 or 30 years ago, really, however,

we’ve also got this increasing sort of acceleration or technology, technological acceleration, where things are like almost like getting jammed into into smaller timeframes. We’ve got different kinds of tools. It feels like we’re becoming much more even just like setting meetings as an example for us to phone up, say, are you free. Now it’s all done through Calendly Calendly. You can’t say it or it’s done automatically. And everything’s done through the NSOs we feel much more like a cog in the machine. This means that generating the stress yet we can talk about it more it feels like it’s a bit of a two seam linked, and it’s a bit of a sort of a double edged sword. Really. I don’t know if what you think.

Yeah, a couple of thoughts on that. What this is not what I’m saying is not new to anyone, but obviously technology is keeping an eye on all of the time. Yeah, so as well as it creates significant ease and efficiencies in the way that we do things. But it’s meaning that we don’t switch off and it does mean that you know, someone can decide at 10 o’clock at night that they’re going to book an appointment with me and they’ve gone to my system and but they can do all of that it removes removes a bit of the human element, doesn’t it which is also important, but in in the workplace, what I see is an expectations particularly at senior levels, that people are on all the time, you know, so you are responding to your

emails as soon as they come in, and what have you and some of the most effective people I’ve observed in the workplace because I know I don’t think I ever truly achieved this for myself. For people who when I’m looking at my emails in this tag, my agenda is not driven by someone emailing me, my agenda is driven by what I’m trying to achieve in my objectives, and what my team need and what my business area needs, as opposed to

the 50 people that have emailed me this morning requesting information, and you become a slave to that. So I wonder if it’s, for me, it’s

technology. So not necessarily being a cog in the machine, but it facilitates some great things, but it drives a set of behaviours, which can actually make people ineffective and stress. But it’s our reaction to it and talking about there about our psychology reaction to an email coming in, or a notification on social media is like, you have to respond straight away. And it’s almost like, we’re training ourselves to have to respond straight away. And the expectation is to respond right away. If you look at kids today, they they get upset if you haven’t responded straight away. And that’s kind of the psychology that’s going on amongst Snapchat, and WhatsApp, largely Snapchatting those kinds of things. And it’s not that’s for us to control whether we do respond straight away, and the expectations and that’s the piece, it feels it sounds like it needs to change to a certain extent, we need to have a different relationship with technology and maybe Walker hightest. I like the idea of almost like walking a much more slowly human pays, rather than the computer pays, which is just like very task orientated.

Yeah, yeah, I couldn’t agree more how we achieve that is, is the trickier thing, isn’t it? And I do think there’s a responsibility for leadership in the workplace, isn’t there in terms of what expectations they have around that, because that sets the tone and the culture in the entire organisation

about those things? And when it does translate through into your personal life, doesn’t it? Whether you’re using social media, for business, or for personal reasons, what you’re actually using that for.

And I suppose if all you’re doing is responding to emails or responding to messages, then you’ve lost control, haven’t you, you’ve lost control, because your tasks are being driven by the machine or by whatever it is coming in, rather than having your time where you’re deciding what to do versus not. And then you can control what needs to be done versus time. It needs to be the right thing. But you have to, you’ve got a different kind of you’re in control, at least anyway, which gives you a sort of a sense of mastery, or maybe it is maybe what I’m looking for. Yeah, I’d agree with that. And it’s also about for me about running your day to your own agenda. Because as soon as you’re responding to emails, you’re just responding usually to someone else’s agenda. So set aside time for doing that being helpful and responding to things. But if it’s not serving your agenda, whether that’s personal professional, does it deserve that amount of time? It’s so much easier said than done?

Yeah, I want to link that back to remote working, actually. So that’s been there’s been a bit of debate. And it’s interesting, it changes by country. Actually, it’s been a bit of time back in North America, and very much there. The theme was around trying to get people back in the office, I see some of that here. But not to the same extent in Europe, I think people are much more comfortable with hybrid kind of working seems to be where we’ve landed. But it’s not the same thing in terms of it’s a bit of a battle of control in terms of we’ve got to have people back and we’ve got to control things, or we don’t trust people that are actually going to do the work versus people at home saying we’re completely trustworthy. We’ve got stuff done. I don’t want to spend two hours a day commuting in

maybe from what you can see which side of the argument ICER on both. But it’s what, how do you think that’s kind of evolved? Really, because that feels certainly in some markets is a bit of a battleground in terms of where we need to be and whether we’re going to be more effective or not. There’s arguments evolving from there really?

Yeah, I think I can say with certainty, I don’t envy the leaders who are making the decisions on this stuff. But at the moment.

See also  Data we already have - it's still under utilised

I definitely hear both sides of it. I work with leaders who have teams and they want them in the office, because that’s when they see that’s when they believe they see the best results. And I work with people who feel like they’ve been forced back to the office. And it’s really reducing engagement and commitment and motivation.

I don’t know where we’re gonna land on this, ultimately, because there are still I’m still seeing lots of companies now making their policy decisions about how many days in the office need to happen and trying to create some flexibility within that policy, but making a statement about it.

But it all comes down to I think it comes down to trust. If you can technically physically do your job remotely.

If you’ve got the tools and you’ve got the engagement and you’re highly motivated and skilled, then surely essentially you can do it and you can make your decision around where you do that work and where to best

but obviously in a big organisation you need to be consistent

Most of the time, you need to have a level of consistency over what people do.

So really, what you want to do is say, you know what’s best for you. And you do that.

In my mind, that would be the ideal because some people absolutely just crave being in the office, I’ve got some clients who are in the office five days a week paid to be in a home, it really affected them. And they actually enjoy the commute because of what downtime it gives them from a cognitive perspective. So everybody’s different, but what you’re doing in a big organisation is trying to drive fairness and consistency. So

I just think you’re in a no win situation on this.

It just seems like everything, we tend to think of everything as being like, black or white, or on or off or in the office or not in the office. And often these realities is life is quite great, isn’t it? So it’s the right thing. For some people, it’s the right thing for some situations where I know some things which I would always much rather eat face to face. And it just, it makes a huge difference for some things, but not for everything. Some things, it’s better just to be sat at home, you know, or Sat Sat in an office or in the quiet getting stuff done. And it depends on people’s personality type as well as I imagined as well. So it’s, I suppose it’s, it sounds like it’s organisations have trouble with the grey, because it’s easier to have a black and white policy or one way or the other, when actually we probably need to have a much more varied policy and probably a little reflective of that complexity almost. Yeah. And I guess one of the things I think about and I know, it’s easy to say this when you’re not in the thick of it, is it my preference would be that leadership teams are focusing more on no matter where if someone’s working, how do we ensure that people are highly engaged, highly motivated, highly skilled at doing that work, because if you do that, does it really matter? Less than one’s doing it from, because if someone’s really engaged and motivated, and they know that in order to get the best result, they need to be collaborating with other people face to face for two days a week, they’ll just do it, they’ll make it happen. But if they’re not engaged, motivated, don’t feel recognised, etc, etc, don’t feel connected to their leadership or the organisation, then they’re not really going to go out of their way to do that. So I think keeping the energy and the focus was really there. I

think the other bit would take care of itself.

That sounds a bit idealistic. But that’s what I see coming through.

Now, you mentioned nutrition earlier, I know this is going to be a bit off topic. But some a lot of really fascinating research around microbiome and the effect on the effect on the body effect on psychology effect on effect on the brain and all sorts of things. I think that’s just that it’s just that I just more than anything, it’s just a fascinating area, in terms of we don’t seem to be, we have a relationship with our whole body, the cells in the body and the bacteria in our guts as well, that affects us in ways that we never even knew. And even this stuff seems like it’s evolving even since COVID, as well, with all the genetic testing that we’ve been doing. Yeah, I mean, I mean, it’s quite an exciting area, actually. I mean, do you how often do you get to talk about that in terms of nutrition, making sure you’re looking after your microbiome, in terms of Do you think that’s going to increasingly feed through into some of your other work in terms of the coaching side of things and performance and who we are as humans? What’s your kind of view on that, because it’s quite cutting edge really.

I was taught about this stuff 10 plus years ago, and it had been around a long time, then. So the good news is, it’s getting talked about people understanding it more than

I really try and send my whole thing is that this stuff can get really complex everything can. And for me, the absolute simplicity around nutrition, and people really looking after themselves is trying to have things as close to its natural state as possible. So avoid processed food possibly can. So it’s been in a factory and all the stuffs been done to it. It’s not going to be good for your court or for your brain or for your hormones, play.

So wherever possible, do that. Be in tune with your body and kind of know what makes you feel good, because we are all different, and we will respond to certain foods differently. But we’ve become really disconnected to what we this guru says I should eat in this way I will eat in that way. And I’m really disconnected with how I feel as a result of that.

The more that you can do those two things and actually give yourself time to eat as opposed to ripping open a sandwich packet, knocking it down as you before your next meeting. So having time to connect with your food while you’re consuming it. If you do those things, which are not easy things, but if you did, that’s a simple way to handle it and you’re probably feeding yourself. You’re feeding yourself in a way that

your microbiome will respond to microbiome wants natural foods that your grandmother used to eat basically, as opposed to highly processed things that have been floating all around the world. You know what that really, I know, it’s a cliche, but we are what we eat at the end of the day, but we are also how we live and breathe, I would say somebody

is, I don’t know, let’s say eating soups and salads, homemade soups and salads every day operating in a hugely stressful environment, happy with what they’re doing will probably have more severe consequences than someone on a diet who’s happy, relaxed, mindful, what have you. So it’s the it is how the whole thing comes together, you’ve got to look at the whole picture and just see where you can start making incremental changes, and then focus on those.

You’ve got quite an interesting perspective, because you can look at both of those things and blend them together, really, which I think is fascinating. So if you were to give some advice, suppose to folks who might be in either those stressful situations or might be in a leadership situation that just to close here, and would you say with some of the key things you think you would recommend in terms of being conscious of if not actually doing think, first of all, just acknowledge where you’re at. And don’t give yourself hard time about it, because that can add to the stress load. And I think just trying to get underneath, underneath the skin of what’s actually driving stress and break that down, and then don’t overwhelm yourself. Because what we can do is go from, this is a problem. So I should do all of these things. And you just, the reality is people are busy, they can’t fit all of that in. So just start with some small steps and get the right support in place. doing that.

That’s typically what I’m doing with clients, when they’re in a stressful state, I could sit there and go, here’s a list of 20 things that are going to make you feel better. If you’re not going to do then that’s not going to help them in any way, shape or form. So just want choose one thing, and just focus on that. Yeah, yeah. Okay. That’s great advice. And I’m not trying to take too too much too quickly as i do within your capacity, I think is what you’re saying to Deb, it’s really great to chat to you again. It’s fantastic. And thanks very much for the time I really appreciate it. You’re welcome. Good to speak to you


RO-AR insider newsletter

Receive notifications of new RO-AR content notifications: Also subscribe here - unsubscribe anytime