Contact Centre as a Service: Evolving fast and creating change – [FULL INTERVIEW]

Rob Wiles from Odigo explores from of the key trends and challenges in the future of customer experience (CX).

Organizations to adapt to evolving customer preferences by leveraging digital channels, integrating data from various sources, and harnessing the power of artificial intelligence (AI).

Personalization, automation, and seamless integration across channels and systems are all going to be important in the future, as will be the the role of major hyperscalers like Google, Amazon, and Microsoft in shaping the future of CX through their ecosystems.

Find out more about Odigo -> Here.

Key Points:

  • The proliferation of digital channels and evolving customer preferences require organizations to adapt their CX strategies accordingly.
  • The integration of data from various channels and systems is essential to deliver personalized and effective customer journeys.
  • Cloud-based platforms offer easy access to a wide range of communication channels, allowing organizations to select the most relevant ones for their customers.
  • The choice of channels should be driven by customer preferences and the desired outcomes, with a focus on simplicity and effectiveness.
  • AI, including conversational AI and generative AI, holds great potential for enhancing CX by automating processes, improving response times, and providing intelligent support to agents.
  • AI should be implemented in a way that complements human interaction rather than replacing it entirely, with a focus on improving customer journeys and experiences.
  • Customer expectations and behaviors have shifted, with self-service options gaining acceptance and customers seeking quick and efficient resolution to their queries.
  • Omni-channel strategies are crucial for delivering a seamless customer experience, allowing customers to transition smoothly between channels while maintaining access to relevant data.
  • Major hyperscalers like Google, Amazon, and Microsoft play a significant role in shaping the future of CX through their ecosystems and integration capabilities.
  • Organizations need to consider the risks and benefits of transitioning from legacy systems to newer technologies, focusing on customer outcomes and the experience of the vendor or service provider.
  • The role of data in CX cannot be overstated, and organizations should prioritize data quality, integration, and utilization to drive meaningful insights and improvements.
  • The future of CX will likely involve advancements in video communication, facial recognition, and more extensive use of AI technologies to provide personalized and efficient experiences.

Key Takeaways:

  • Organizations must adapt their CX strategies to meet evolving customer expectations driven by digital channels and changing preferences.
  • Seamless integration of data across channels and systems is crucial for delivering personalized and effective customer journeys.
  • AI technologies, such as conversational AI and generative AI, can enhance CX by automating processes and providing intelligent support to agents.
  • Self-service options and quick query resolution are becoming increasingly important to customers.
  • Omni-channel strategies enable a seamless customer experience and access to relevant data across channels.
  • Major hyperscalers like Google, Amazon, and Microsoft are shaping the future of CX through their ecosystems and integration capabilities.
  • Careful consideration of risks and benefits is necessary when transitioning from legacy systems to newer technologies.
  • Data quality, integration, and utilization are key to driving meaningful insights and improvements in CX.
  • Video communication, facial recognition, and AI technologies will likely play a significant role in the future of CX, enabling personalized and efficient experiences.
Interview Transcript

So hi, everyone. I’m here with Rob Wiles today from Odigo and CCAS space, the contact centre as a service space. So Rob, thanks very much. And thanks for joining me today.

Oh, thanks for having me, Chris. Pleasure to be here.

So I’m quite interested, I suppose, because you’re in this contact centre as a service space since what are some of the trends that you’ve been seeing? It feels like we saw that kind of space is transforming, really over the last couple of years in terms of centralization, there’s more, being able to do things sort of remotely, being able to do things using central services, rather than like on premise services? What are the changes that that you guys have been saying?

Yeah, I think you’ve done a good summary there, Chris. So So certainly, from our perspective, pre COVID, it was all about transition to the cloud, moving that technology out of a customer’s environment, giving that responsibility to a tried and tested vendor. Then during COVID, it was about having our ageing community, our customer services community working remotely, because obviously, they couldn’t come into the office. So those were the the two major shifts we saw over the last few years. But now we’re back. Now we’re back from COVID People are coming back into the office or adopting hybrid working, there’s a whole load of topics on the table for any organisation that’s involved in a customer journey or customer experience. And certainly, from a collections perspective, what’s driving that is actually a consumer, or a business dynamic. And what I mean by that is, everybody has more choice. Now, everybody can look on their mobile for a different provider of the service or the product. And actually, I think from a collections point of view, it’s when you get a client or a customer, at the end successfully have a collections journey. How do you retain them as a customer? How do you not make that experience so terrible that they decided to go and spend $1? Elsewhere?

Yeah, how much do you think the pandemic in particular sort of really sort of supercharged, the cloud based services? And you mentioned it there, the fact that everything we’re always concerned about security before and there’s, you know, everything was sort of on premise? Because we could select feel and touch it? I

mean, do you think we’ll ever go back there? Or do you think it’s in now, now, we’re pretty much we’re done? I mean, there’s colour because there’s economies of scale, I’d imagine by having it sort of done centrally.

Yeah, it’s done, in my opinion, and our opinion that that hybrid working is here to stay. Without a shadow of a doubt, you’ll bring your staff in for core activity review, training, skills analysis, potentially, but their day to day work, can be done from anywhere, and definitely cloud as helped drive that adoption.

And as throughout the pandemic, as well, we also had all these themes really around digital different types of contact channels. And you’ve already mentioned that they’re in the late how do people want to get hold of one minute? How much? How much is that sort of that changing? I mean, is that sort of changing, continuing to change because we, before we were very much or letters to let telephony was very important. The collections world it was inbound calls, outbound calls, have some restrictions around that. But then we sort of got into SMS, but it feels like that even that sort of expanding even further now.

Oh, hugely. So voice is still the most commonly used channel across all demographics, or businesses. But digital, certainly has been driven by that consumer desire for 24/7 access, we’re now all very used to self service, whether that be through a voice channel or a chatbot, channel doesn’t matter. So that’s drive driven adoption really well, as well. But then you’ve also got core line of business applications, for example, Salesforce, that have now you know, their own digital channels to use in that customer journey. So when you have really big players, like your CRM players coming into that space, there’s obviously a market, there’s obviously a need. And that’s why they produced their technology to to address it,

how to clients keep up with it, because the proliferation of channels has been huge, right. And even if you look at what’s on the horizon, where people are actually communicating versus the way businesses might communicate, it’s, you know, Snapchat, it’s other kinds of communication that happens other kind of like messaging, apps, that kind of happen. SAP is sort of on the cusp of it, but there’s other ones out there as well. And if it feels like it’s constantly changing at the fringes, and businesses seem like sort of five years behind sometimes, I mean, how do we manage that? Because it becomes complex for businesses as well,

it absolutely does. So, delivery of those services, if you’re on a cloud type based platform is easy to do. It’s part of the feature set that most cloud providers having, including Odigo. So you would just go and select that from a menu of channels, set up that routing, setup that qualification or where you go. The harder part is how you then integrate that into your business on your workflow with the least amount of risk. So I think the best strategy is keep it simple. Find the channels that are relevant to the customer that you’re dealing with. And collections is super specialised in that space, and look at the ways that they want to communicate with you and delivers the best outcome for your organisation.

What are the best practices in terms of how to think about which channels to go after? I mean, I mean, is it still about channel? And or is it really about customer preferences? I suppose it would be the other way of looking at it. It’s customer choice,

Chris’s customer choice. Absolutely. And it’s customer choice based upon what the transaction is coming in to ask about or query for, or what that that consumer or that business is looking for in terms of outcome, it has to be customer choice, it has to be driven that way, because I think there are plenty of organisations that believe they’re communicating in the right way. But if they look at the results of their transactions, or the cost of delivery of that service, it’s not the most effective,

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how do you know if you’re not delivering or communicating in the right way? If you’re not trying it? And what do you have to try every single channel to know, actually, Snapchat is should have been the best way for us to actually communicate with this segment or because because if you never use it, you never know, to certain extent,

I think the best way to look at it is look at your demographic of customer, whether it’s business or whether it’s consumer, look at the way that demographic generally communicates, and then look at how you want to bring that into your customer journey. That’s the starting point. So the indicators are in the demographic, how you then execute on that, you’ve got to look at the data that you can also make available depending on the channel. So we all know from right back in the day, a phone number, we can actually identify and collate a lot of data from a CRM system. Can you do the same with a Twitter handle? Probably not, not unless it’s been pre populated. So also look at the datasets you’ve got against the incoming channel or outgoing channel. Because if you don’t have the right information, when the agent takes that transaction, it’s going to be a much more difficult job for them to do it. Certainly, again, you look at the collections industry, a priority has to be identifying vulnerable customers, because you’re going to treat the vulnerable customers slightly differently to somebody like myself, wife, two kids, two dogs, I just got behind on his credit card bill, okay, you’re going to treat a vulnerable customer probably very differently to the way I would be treated. So match up data set along with a channel execution would be a really good starting point to get the most from it.

And that’s because you have this problem in collections as well, where you don’t actually have good population and telephone numbers. So you might have got great population and acquisition. But that might have been 10 years ago, right? And when they didn’t even have email or a Twitter handle or tick tock ID, whatever it is, but 910, eight, we’re now 10 years down the road. And we’re now looking for those things. And it’s like, is it not across the whole of the journey where you got to be asking the questions, how do you update it? Or there’s less than me talking to a collections guy at the back end saying we’ve got to have this stuff, right. So

yeah, yeah, part of the journey has to be qualification on who is contacting you? What information do we have about that person, so we can intelligently route the transaction. Okay, now, whether that’s the client, the consumer, providing that information at the start of the transaction journey, or whether that’s automating that from a CRM, making an intelligent decision on how you route and then presenting that information to the agent, there’s got to be a connection between the two anyway, generally, that’s where your data sets and your customer information sits?

And do you think that the lines between almost like departments or business lines are blurring a little bit? So. So we talked about three that we talked about acquisition, we’ve talked about like customer service, or customer care, then you got the collections piece as well. And the collections piece feels like that sort of blending more into the customer care piece. And even on the upstream piece, where we’re like, almost like seeing it, like the customers the same all the way across rather than it being separate silos? Are you seeing that in your clients as well? Yeah, so So thinking,

the workflows per department are different. The way you treat a transaction, the way you route it, the information that you want to show to your live agent handling, or the way you want to automate the transaction is different because the workflows are different. But actually, from a customer’s perspective, you want to create a personalised journey. You want to use the data you’ve got or have identified at the start of the transaction journey, and then personalise it based upon what you know about that person or entity.

And we’ve got consumer duty coming up at the end of July, which is a big thing in the UK. And a big part of that. And from the conversations I’ve been having recently around this topic has been around evidencing. So how do you see sort of context as to sensor systems in terms of playing that role in terms of evidence in terms of like contact activity, those kinds of things? Is that Is that coming up?

It comes up in every single deployment that we do as a business. So we target mid market to large enterprises. Yes, within our product, we have a CRM light application that is able to provide that evidence of contact and provide data to the agent when they’re on the transaction. But actually, the majority of our deploy Months, skip that step and use the CRM system or the database that they use in their general line of business. And there’s your evidential roots. Our job as a technology provider, is to automate as much of that data transfer as possible. So it’s not just the Voice Recording, it could be sentiment about the call, how frustrated was the email? how frustrated was the SMS? Was there certain language used in the voice conversation, we need to take all of that data and move it to where the organisation wants it so they can make the best data driven decisions?

are we capturing enough data through through the process, there’s more can be done. We talked about voice analytics, there was as far as voice transcription. That’s a new wave that’s coming through and this whole sort of complete analytics around qualities of calls and things. But are we capturing enough? Are we making enough use of the data?

There will always be different data points to take? Yeah, all right. You know, what we’ve talked about there is text and voice, okay. But we’ve now got clients that are doing video, like we’re doing now. And actually, that’s a really personalised experience for a consumer or an entity, you can see the whites of somebody’s eyes, it’s not just a voice on the end of a on the end of a phone or somebody tapping away, you can see them typing, but then there will become all the data around the video. So undoubtedly, it will go into facial recognition, it will go into expressions to gain sentiment alongside the voice that is all to come down the line. But also, from that perspective, you could use this for identification purposes as well, ID and v we call it we love a good acronym in our industry. But identity and verification, facial recognition is a very natural step for the contact centre.

Where do we go? Where do we go next? From here, I think Do you think videos, the next kind of step where we go? Because we’ve sort of we’ve been through telephony we’ve been going through, I suppose messaging, two way messaging, and we should chat a little bit about chat bots, and where we sit with them. And what are the new trends that are coming in? Do you think it goes next videos? And other one, right?

Yeah, video video absolutely has its use cases you look at during during COVID as a prime example, your electrical retailers adopted video very heavily to showcase product. So you could make the right decision as a consumer. That is, I wouldn’t say it’s mainstream, but it’s certainly not bleeding edge anymore, you can bring that channel in very easily. But I think the hot topic, the hot topic is artificial intelligence. It’s AI and there you’ve got immediately to mainstream flavours of that you’ve got conversational AI. So intelligence built upon a very narrow set of information that is provided by the client in terms of knowledge base articles, all that sort of stuff. And then you’ve got generative AI, which is the chat GPT stuff. So that’s where it’s got a much wider field of data to make its responses from and my view, and it’s a personal view. Are we ready for that? That larger chat GPT type application? Potentially not? But it will really depend upon the massive amount of datasets available to it? How much of it is correct? How much of it isn’t? How does it build its response from so much data, whereas conversational AI, which is still being adopted, you can probably make more accurate, you just have to keep it more updated as you go through as an organisation. But certainly ai, ai is going to touch everything. This is not just about front end web chat. This is about every step of that customer journey can be touched by AI,

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some of the discussion around AI, as was chatbots has been like, how do you take cost out? So are you hearing? Is it a cost piece? Or is it actually a helping customer experience piece? Because you can look at both of them? Right? So is it? Is it just we’re gonna, you know, reduce the number of agents? Or do you think it’s actually there’s benefits that can be generated from a customer experience point of view, if I put my consumer duty hat on particularly?

Right now the conversations we’re having is how does it enhance the customer journey? So allowing service outside of main opening hours of contact centre? Absolutely, AI has a play, helping an agent with the next best steps, helping the agent with suggested responses, and speeding up that transaction time. So you as a consumer, or as a business entity, gets your response quickly and efficiently, is where I think most of the conversations are right now. Replacing of live agents, live empathetic agents. No, I don’t think so. Not yet.

So it didn’t feel like through the pandemic we didn’t, it was best described to me as almost like we didn’t have the habits of using digital and digital self serve. And we got into the habit habit of it and it wasn’t that scary, right. So I think we’re in that same kind of spot in terms of like with with with AI and some of these large language models, but but also the other types of machine learning as well.

I think we’re just starting on that understanding of how it’s going to affect our lives. Okay. You know, the great cases are in chat GPT writing school kids essays is a really The interesting use case if you want to call it that, but in in our world of CX and customer contact, we’re just starting on that journey. But if it’s implemented the right way. So automate where it makes sense, always have human contact as the backup, or as a necessary step and remove the automation. As long as you’ve got that as the mindset. I think the adoption will be really good because we’re all used to using digital services. You’re absolutely right. We’re all used to using messenger we’re all used to using, we’ve used press one for this tea for that for years, we’ve all inputted our account numbers in banking systems, or an identifier for a collections account. Everybody’s done that. So to a degree, we’re used to self service, but automate where it makes sense, use the human effects to to really deliver a personalised journey, I think,

how much of a house do you think consumers really want to talk to people versus being able to do things almost like through self serve versus not? And I know, it all depends probably on the situation to a certain extent, but we almost if I go back 10 years, we were always on, you got to talk with people or even even even this, some banks, your phone up, like, and you’re still going through IVR hours, right? It’s still going. For me, that’s like I don’t want to do that I just made that much rather do on the website, as an example. But I remember the conversation we used to have about how wonderful the IVR was in terms of reducing time, and there’s nothing but actually it was actually just frustrating me to a certain extent what I mean, is that our psychologies changed, or do you think just the technology’s changed, or are we interacting with things differently than we used to,

we’re interacting differently. Ultimately, the goal of any customer service journeys, first call resolution, we talk about it all the time, it’s a key metric within the contact centre world. And that is driven by not just the cost of delivering the service, but actually from the consumer. From the business’s point of view, we all want the information when we want the information, and we want it as quickly as we can. So we are as a population, happy to self serve, when it suits us, as long as there’s always that backup of speaking to a human if they’re available. But I mean, there are, you know, we’re talking about banks that, that, that use IVR hours, I mean, you bring that back into the financial world with collections, just somebody that owes money really want to speak to a live person, genuine, maybe not, they need to be offered the option. And if that speeds up the debt recovery period, then that has to be the right thing to do. If the end result is that if it makes somebody more comfortable to deal with AI, or to deal with a self service application, then it should be made available. And if in the psyche of some people, if there’s if they’re feeling bad about money they owe or they can’t pay, they really going to they’re really going to take a phone call from a contact centre. I doubt it. I really doubt it.

Some people absolutely don’t. And they’d rather do it because they’re embarrassed around it. Some people do need the support, and you got to have multiple people there to help them when they need it. Yeah, the other thing, and just going back to large language models is the ability to be able to maybe ask the questions, the embarrassing questions that you don’t ask a human, you know, so I might not want to ask you like the really sort of like what I would feel be like really basic questions, but I will ask those to the computer maybe, because I know that there’s no embarrassment factor there. So I think there’s those kinds of spaces for a but it doesn’t mean to say I don’t want to talk with someone, I probably want to talk with someone or better educated, I think,

again, that fits perfectly within a customer journey. When you get into that the more data we have on a collections case, actually, the more intelligent all of it becomes in the process of every single transaction. So the AI becomes more intelligent, because it’s got more better datasets to work from. And when it ends up with a human agent, actually, you’re identifying what type of person you’re talking to, you’ve immediately got view of all the previous transactions they’ve had, you’ve got the dates and times on the transactions, there’s patterns that can be seen and identified by AI around. Actually, this is a really good time to talk about, can you make another payment? Or actually, this is the wrong time to talk about that. This is the time to talk about support, how’re you doing? How’s things going? What’s the position rather than going straight to a financial transaction. But this is where it all blends together. But it still comes back to a personalised journey to have the best effect.

And what about the role of things like omni channel so Omni channels obviously talked about in terms of you start on one channel, then you go to another channel? And you know where all of that is? Yeah, and what’s happened for that seemed like that was a challenge even a couple of years ago, and it feels like we’ve made great progress around that. Because that still a theme,

the education with organisations around to become channel less, which is the omni channel message. So everything comes in to the same platform gets access to the same data set. Everything is connected, you know, and you as an organisation can set how each of those transactions route and what’s the best thing to do is certainly better than siloed communication because How can you create a personalised journey or an effective automated journey when your channels are siloed? When you datasets are potentially completely separate, your administration is completely separate. And that’s the underpinning philosophy of omni channel is control and a joint experience.

And I suppose how much of it, how much of it is around the technology, and except you’re a technology company, how much of it is around the technology, but actually how much of it is actually know about the data? So no matter what the channel is, it’s around. What data does that give me? What does that tell me about the customer? What does it mean in terms of routing and the technologies way of getting the data except that but yeah, because before we were always like, I’ve got to have this technology? Versus should we be thinking about, I’ve got to have this data? And what’s the technology, the enablement to get me that data?

Yeah, without the dataset, you could have the best contact centre system in the world, but it would still potentially fail on your organisational outcomes. So that connection between the customer experience engine, and the data set is absolutely crucial, absolutely crucial. When we all know if they if the dataset is a load of rubbish, your input and your output is rubbish. But having the to talk together seamlessly is absolutely paramount.

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And what about for clients who’ve got legacy systems they might have on prem systems, or or those kind of things that they have this mishmash of systems, which you see when a particular company has been very successful. They’ve been here a long time, what’s your advice to them in terms of the changeover and like, how to go about that? Because it can be a big lift for people, which is probably part of the reason why they’ve not changed already, if they haven’t.

Yeah. And this is all about risk. So there’s, there’s financial considerations when making a technology procurement. Am I still in contract? How much of I got embedded into that asset? Can I afford to move to something else, completely get that that’s the way any organisational decision works. But for specifically, for customer experience and collections, it’s about risk. It’s about risk of transition from what you know, and have accepted is working here may have challenges to implementing something new that overcomes those challenges and delivers additional outcome, but what’s the risk in that transition? And I’d suggest it’s not just about the technology, I suggest, it’s about the experience of the organisation you’re making that procurement from. So whether that’s a vendor, whether that’s a systems integrator, a service provider, a value added reseller partner of that vendor, I think that choice is as important as the technology. Because if you’re working with an organisation that doesn’t get what your outcomes will need to be, then your project will fail.

You talk about vendors, their earnest was the experience of the vendors. But then also, with API’s, I suppose people are now starting to talk to each other, talk to each other much more. So for example, when you mentioned Salesforce earlier, and you guys have a relationship with them, it’s like, it’s like this interconnection of lots of different vendors seems to be much more common is that, is that really like taking the best of each of them? Is that something that is an opportunity? And why is that? Why is that sort of taking off? I suppose.

So you’ve answered your question there about how different departments work across an organisation. So you might have a sales organisation in a business that operates on one line of business application, you’ve got the collections department or work within collection software, you’ve got a service department, let’s say for a housing association that will have a specific vertical software package that suits their environment. But one contact centre platform. So so the contact centre platform has to be able through API’s to integrate each application to deliver the right set of information to an agent to deliver the right intelligence around routing to deliver the right intelligence around qualification of who’s conceptually how their content to you, what’s their story. So So it’s got to be API driven. It’s got to be open and easy to integrate. We have a public sector customer that has 11 line of business applications integrated into a single platform now because of the complexity of the roles within their business.

And where do you think that will evolve to I’m thinking almost like, if you look at, say, Apple products, or if you look at Microsoft products, where we have lots of different products, and but they do start to talk to each other. And both of those company invested a huge amount of money. And Google’s the same around making sure they can talk to each other. So you can copy and paste from a spreadsheet into a word processing application as an example. And that becomes easy and seamless to do. Yeah, it feels like with API’s and the integration across platforms on the business side, it’s starting to move that way, although maybe not as fast do you think we’ll get there where it’s going to be completely seamless and you almost like you want to press a button you need a collection system or unique collection functionality will need contact centre functionality and almost like click click the app button and then it instals automatically.

Yeah, I think that will be true. driven by what your turn the hyper scalars to Amazon’s you, Microsoft’s you, Google’s where organisations are make a decision on a hyper scalar. And then any other applications line of business contact centre CX will have to be aligned and certified and integrated with that hyper scalar. So for example, you’ll find organisations that have chosen Google. So they will only procure applications and technology that is already pre integrated and certified with Google. And that’s where you’ll get that into adoption of application that copy and paste.

So you have almost like the mothership, although the big software, and then you have the the ecosystem that then basically sits within that,

definitely. And then we got to google it ecosystems. And you can see all of that developing, it’s so important that if a customer is making a decision, that they’re making that decision in an open ecosystem environment, because we all have to support all vendors have to support customer choice. It’s very rare, for example, that we come across an opportunity that is just contact centre. Okay. There’s normally a telephony unified communications element, there might be a CRM element, there might be another application, that’s part of the procurement. And you’ve got to be able to integrate or whatever the customer chooses, on those other procurements. So so that ecosystem plays is really important. And the more open, you are to those integrations, I think, the better positions, you’ll be certainly within hyperscalers.

If you look at the the hyper scalars, sitting at the top, which ones do you think will will come out of the out at the end of the day as being the ones to watch?

I think it’d be the three that I mentioned, I think would be Google, Amazon, and Microsoft, are certainly, and they all have fantastic ecosystem place, all of them, because they’ve recognised that they have to support customer choice. But equally, you know, if you’ve got an open ecosystem and more applications in your ecosystem, then more customers are likely to procure the mothership.

So despite the implementation of chat, GTP, and all the talk there is around the demise of Google as an example, then it’s probably a little bit premature, I read everything, because they’re so embedded right at the top. So they’re creating an ecosystem. So to certain extent,

very, very much. So very much so. And we come across customers that want to procure everything through Amazon Marketplace. So if you’re not on amazon marketplace, you’re not going to reach that customer, you’ll immediately be turfed out the sales cycle. So that gives you an idea of the power of an ecosystem.

And I suppose as a software vendor, you can be part of multiple ecosystems slightly differently, you can do that, but there’s a limit to how many you can do isn’t that can’t be 50, but probably would be five.

Now we take, we take what I think is a slightly different approach to most vendors in our space. So we’re very, very good at in project integration. So if we’re not part of, I don’t know, ABC CRMs ecosystem, because we’ve never integrated before, we’ll stand by our API set and go, don’t worry about it, Mr. Customer, if that’s your CRM, and we’re your chosen CX partner, we’ll do the integration as part of the project to our professional services leads. And we’re very good at that. But then you still want to be present in the core ecosystems that are really important to you. So for us, Salesforce pegar, we’re looking at Microsoft, those are ecosystems we want to be in, because they’re the most common people we see in our target market. You can’t be in everything.

Yeah, it’s interesting how it’s changing, and how it’s subtly changing as well. It’s like the monolithic systems of the past seem to be sort of like disappearing and becoming this sort of like ecosystem doesn’t. Yeah, so it feels like that’s changing very fast. Yeah. So well, we’ll Rob, thanks very much for making the time. I really appreciate it. It’s good to hear a bit about what the future of C Cas is and where things are going. It feels like it’s moved to an awfully long way. Very fast. I’m not sure that the speed is actually slowing down at all, actually. So it’s, so I appreciate you taking the time. Thanks very much.

Thanks for your time, Chris. You take care. Thanks. Cheers.


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