Ukraine: Technology and leadership through times of conflict – [FULL INTERVIEW]

In this conversation, Kos Chekanov, from Artkai provides insights into the challenges and resilience of Ukrainian businesses during times of war and the COVID-19 pandemic.

As CEO of an IT company in Ukraine we discuss the impact on their operations, the importance of remote work, and the need for adaptability, also delving into topics such as business continuity planning, customer support, UX design, and the future of the IT industry in Ukraine.

Find out more about ArtKai-> Here.

Key Points

  • Ukrainians have shown resilience during the war, with many relocating to the western part of the country.
  • The COVID-19 pandemic forced companies to adapt to remote work, which turned out to be productive and efficient.
  • Artkai experienced a high level of client loyalty, with only one client unable to work with Ukraine due to security policies.
  • The company focuses on customer-centric digital engineering, blending industry expertise with engineering knowledge to deliver value.
  • UX design plays a crucial role in creating user-friendly products, and early investment in design thinking and validation is important.
  • Balancing complexity and simplicity in software development depends on the specific use case and the willingness of the company to adapt its processes.
  • AI tools and advancements in virtual reality will impact software development, making certain tasks easier while still requiring expertise.
  • The IT industry in Ukraine has faced economic challenges, but the company anticipates a rebound and plans to invest in marketing activities.
  • The future of the IT industry will be influenced by automation, consolidation, and the need for continuous learning and adaptation.

Key Takeaways

  1. Resilience and adaptability are crucial for businesses during times of crisis.
  2. Remote work can be productive and efficient with the right tools and communication.
  3. Customer loyalty and support play a vital role in sustaining businesses.
  4. UX design should prioritize user-centric approaches and early validation.
  5. Balancing complexity and simplicity depends on the unique needs of each business.
  6. AI tools and virtual reality advancements will shape the future of software development.
  7. The IT industry in Ukraine faces economic challenges but expects a rebound.
  8. Marketing activities and establishing a reliable company image are important for growth.
  9. Automation and consolidation will influence the IT industry’s future landscape.
  10. Continuous learning and staying updated with industry trends are necessary.
  11. Ukraine’s IT industry is known for its expertise and progressive digital tools.
Interview Transcript

So hi everyone, I’m here with Kos Chekanov who works for a company called Artkai. You’re the CEO based in Ukraine, and you’re in the design, web design system design space. And so a little bit of a different interview this week, but cause thanks very much for joining me. And it’s great to have you here. Ready? So yeah, I’m happy to be here as well. Thank you for the invitation. Yeah. So the first time we spoke was, I think, on the 21st of February, last year, and it was two days, I think, before Russia invaded. Do you want to just take us through what happened after that? I know, we were talking about it at that time. And it’s kind of like, you know, I’m not sure that anything’s gonna happen. And then then, like, everything that we thought would happen, has happened, and like the worst has happened. Really? I mean, it’s been, it’s been, it’s been horrific, really. So what’s it been from? Obviously, you’re on the ground and your perspective, really,

first of all, thank you for asking, again, again, happy to be here. And I get similar questions are quite open and say actually more about the current state of things. But I’m always happy to share how the things are unfolding for myself or the company, because I guess gives a better better overview how Ukrainian sexually showed their resilience, creativity, adaptability, so everything at once. So indeed, I was one of those people who doubt that the war going to happen, that I saw that it’s going to unfold in more or less than scenario where we’re gonna just give something to Russia. And I don’t mean territories, but more or less, like some kind of guarantees that future elections or something like that, which is still bad for Ukraine. And then it all started in may remember that I was playing in a bar, so I DJ a bit myself. So I love vinyl records and collect them. So it’s my hobby, and keeps me sane, even the right now in the current circumstances. So I was playing in that bar. And usually it has a lot of people. And it was not the case at that particular evening, and the tensions was really high. And those days, and I asked my friend to what’s happening in his opinion, and he told us, he has friends in from some embassies, and all that all that we’re gonna start like today or tomorrow, and I didn’t believe him, honestly. So again, and then eventually, I woke up from explosions, from calls from my father and then started to call my friends, I went for a walk with my dogs, and I couldn’t believe it. Honestly, I thought it would be like, a game over for my business. And for my normal life, as I would say, any person would think under these circumstances. And then I started to write emails to our clients. So that was two or four hours of my day, I don’t actually remember because there were a lot of adrenaline. And they erode that sorry, we’re gonna have some crumbled up problems in delivery, for obvious reasons. But we promise that we’re going to continue the work people need to get to safer places, we are not sure or, which like part of the crane is Ukraine will be final destination for the majority of our employees. And pleasantly a good a lot of sports. Secondly, I had schools, this, the whole team of archives, also told that they need to be aware of what’s happening. And if they can do whatever it takes to make sure that they are feminist, and they are safe. And we decided that we should give them plus like three to four days before the next check in to travel to certain destinations. So that’s what actually happened. So personally, I was also travelling to a western part of Ukraine.

Actually, my friend who is also happened to be my colleague from the sales department, his mother owns a hotel. We also hosted several of our employees and their families over there. And we were staying there for a month. And so the good thing that’s a good thing happened to my company, that we managed to come back to our delivery modes of thinking two weeks after the war started. And our clients redeveloped that a lot and I hope that it shows also like how resilient they were, and how all Ukrainians did show this resilience in various industries, businesses in their personal life is though, so So when it kind of happened, people were just almost like in a state of being stunned, and then it was gonna get out of Kyiv. Well, we can have is that was that kind of the theme, really. So there’s a couple of weeks really, just to try and get out, try and get safe, move west. And then you sort of after a couple of weeks that you then start to pick up what you can then do?

Yeah, well, the core goal was to escape from chaos, because we didn’t know if the city will be a still like safe place or not. So it wasn’t obvious because we heard explosions and everything. So coming to the best region was a good idea. And yeah, we landed in the first part, which was this Hotel in the mountains. Then in about a month, we travelled to another city and all like Ukrainians are like coming from one place to another because as you can imagine, western part of Ukraine

Couldn’t host all people who want it together. So it was a problem to find a place to stay, it was a problem to find the places proper Internet, and you actually get to work without it for obvious reasons. So it was all about finding shelters and making sure that people are safe, and then moved on to some other things like jump on anything around that. And how’s the house, the business kind of evolved? Since then, obviously, you’ve been trying to reassure that reassure your team as much as you can. But I don’t think some people just they moved outside of Ukraine, because to the rest of Europe, some people are still there. How’s it evolved since then, in terms of delivery and keeping, keeping things going? Really?

That’s a really good question. Because I guess that COVID educated us to work remotely in a really productive way. So this is something that’s I must admit. So when the COVID started, I always loved working in office and didn’t imagine myself working from home, because I love crowds and communication and even like commuting to it didn’t bother me. But yet, after the quality will start to work all remotely using all the tools that helped to make it efficient. And I guess this is something that helped us a lot. And at the same time, we also have people who are right now outside of Ukraine, but they still continue working for archives, primarily because they don’t have that big of attrition. And

because we understood how to compile teams, even when they work in different locations to dive in different time zones, and the client in different time zones with all of us, it still worked out pretty good and scoring sexually liked how we could deliver that, in some ways, even educated, such type of work are some of our customers. And what are you finding works well, in terms of that kind of remote working, distributed working in terms of how to make sure you’re getting the best out of them. But then also, you’ve also got to make sure you’re looking after the team because there’s still a war going on. And you’ve got to make sure you’re looking after that as well. So there’s that huge, very human side of it, as well as making sure that the remote work is easy. How are you managing that? How do you think it works best?

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It’s far too early because of the mental state of the people. And I like my girlfriend. So she’s a psychotherapist. And so we even hard if you’re, for example, to have some lectures on how you should take care of your mental state and During such times that we live in and encoding this PTSD. And that’s, I think, touches a lot of Ukrainians right now. But at the same time, it’s all about like communication, and same

looking like positive on the future. So it sounds like a cliche, but it’s true as one of the values to help the company is about sense of humour. So I strongly believe it’s something that helps us to get

past, like, the biggest challenges in our life. And that’s something that’s helped us a lot as well. So we were drinking, like from indoor explosions in Kyiv. Not without casualties, definitely, but on the hurt such like chemicals or drones. So there’s something that’s keeps the whole team together and keep sane. And I guess that’s taken care about this internal communication, something that also helps to take care of the whole team and making sure that we can go through difficult times and not. Last, but not the least, is the thing about adaptability. So it’s even though it’s frightening to tell, but war is something that people right now perceive us like partners alive. So we have this joke as not work life balance, but war life balance. So we all understand this part of our daily life, you must adapt, so we don’t have other choice. And people just don’t notice a lot of things for now, just because we are so delicate. After 450 days. Yeah, I think you’re explaining to me earlier around, for example, air raid shelters and slate how many people go to where he was at the start versus they do now and it becomes normalised to a certain extent, which is yes. Was human behaviour to a certain extent?

Yeah, absolutely. This is definitely human behaviour. You understand that?

any difficult situation that happened to you? At some point, you just understand, Okay, I’m getting over it so and so. War is not an exception. And luckily, Ukrainians adopted in many situations, like when the war started, and when we had really

awful events was a lot of casualties in like regions that we all visited in the past. Then there was this massive rocket attacks almost every week when we didn’t have electricity, but you managed to adapt with all of that demands. And I guess this is part of Greek gradients part of our culture. Yeah. And I suppose a couple of things is teaches you from it’s just horrific. I can’t really comprehend it, but it’s but it’s pretty must have taught you some things from

personally and from a business point of view, for example, business continuation planning, and when we talk about business continuation plan, and it’s sort of like keeping the lights on, but you’re dealing with that almost like an extra level, if you’re running a fully functional business, you’ve got all this stuff going on. I know you’re reaching out, you’re trying to get new clients, you’re still doing work with existing clients, you’ve got you’ve carried on delivering, despite all of this stuff going on. It’s a real testament of success to you and the team really, so it’d be good just to learn around what’s what, what works, because it’s fantastic. It’s a difficult question, because business continuity plan, in many cases, and and always from a lot of my friends who work in at companies, it’s usually works well holding the paper, so not to connect, you can be sure that it’s gonna working well, then something happened. And definitely we all had business conversion plan before the war started. And we have a telling client that’s more like fully prepared, and so on and so forth. But then when it unfolds, you just need to adapt, I would say that 75% of success is all about finding the ways to

get out of difficult situation. And definitely, for example, while we had this,

the problems with electricity, so we rented back an office, which we didn’t have for a while after the COVID started, and it helped had circularity 24/7. And we also bought Stallings to make sure that we have this place where people could come if they don’t have electricity in their own apartment. So this was like part of the deal. And this show that we like, we’re ready to adapt to certain situations, and you can’t predict everything. But you need to think about that. Think about scenarios. And this is something that I believe is one of the core responsibilities of management to think about risks and potential ways to resolve them. And that find the best way once it comes. Because you never know what 100% What’s what’s going to be so so like planning the options that you’re going to have if something happens, and you got different than you got the flexibility. So trying to create the flexibility. Yes, yeah, absolutely. That’s right. And what about from a leadership point of view? If you’re a C, the CEO of archive, what have you learned personally, from a leadership point of view, going through all of this, what you’ve been through,

I guess that’s something you need to ask your employees and your colleagues about how they feel. And yes, this is something that I believe is a big part. So it’s not only about delivery, again, it’s some probably might sound like a cliche, but I strongly believe in it personally, because people need to feel that you really care, not that you do some job or follow certain instructions, even though sometimes they also work. But it’s all about communication that you need to make as human as possible. That’s, that’s, I would say the core learning because you don’t know what

any person like feels in certain period of time. So people could be a lot more drained from the events. And again, I believe that partially, I got the skill from my girlfriend who began a psychotherapist. So she’s telling me how I could adapt my communication with the team to make sure it really helps it has the impact it should have. Other than that, it’s it’s all about showing how would you provide your own forces as much as possible to help the business when the COVID started, I couldn’t travel a lot. And because of the pandemic them, the war started, the borders are closed. And so we needed to find business. And I told that we should focus as much as possible on lead generation on booking the goals. And in many companies, for example, this is covered by salespeople and initial communication, and I saw that it won’t work for us. So I was doing it personally, again, to show that I’m committed as much as possible as founder as a CEO. And but there’s something that’s also good energy to the whole team, because they saw that I’m not like resting, I’m not depressed, and I’m sharing that helps build power. And it also gives this push to the whole squad is incredible, isn’t it, that we can have a conversation just like this over the video, but you can talk with anyone anywhere in the world, you can reach out to anyone in the world, or your team can deliver remotely, I mean, through the pandemic, but then also, you know, through what’s going on now in Ukraine, it’s just it’s incredible. I mean, it’s very seamless. It’s, it’s an amazing world we live in really?

Absolutely, we couldn’t do our job without it. So I’ve been working in this, like digital services for almost nine years. And it was not that easy. Or even like in the first year or so it was like only like Skype, which was not reliable. So right now it’s a lot easier, which is awesome. Yeah. And so so bring us up to date today in terms of like, you know, how things are working. I know we were chatting before you talking about the importance there is around work and people having work in terms of distracting from some of the other things that are going on it provides a bit of focus how’s life working today in terms of like, things like banks working I suppose you know, grocery

You know, you mentioned before about the importance of generating tax revenue for the country and those kinds of things. What’s your kind of perspective on that?

You know,

when I get similar questions from like, potential customers are always happy to tell that live continuous, even though sometimes not easy. So my must admit it in the special like an Eastern or southern part of our country and work like active military activities. But in key for western parts of the country, which are considered safe life goes SS used to go so we have every single parades, banks didn’t have any hiccups since the war started. So our banking system in general, our FinTech industry, is one of the most progressive our digital tools are now bought by even USA, for example. So that’s something that shows how progressive we are. And I guess this is primarily because we’ve been doing it from scratch and started doing not that many years ago, that’s something that we are always on the edge of technologies, at least at certain niches. Also, I was mentioning that time, for example, DJ myself a bit. And we also have like nightclubs, that’s open right now bars, they definitely don’t operate at night because of the curfew. And but you can attend them, and they time and again, have some time to relax, which is a good thing. And generally, all sectors start to work in almost as like pre war state, definitely not like agriculture, for example,

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for obvious reasons, what services and export is

trying to keep up with so what was happening before the war, and IT services get something like around 47, or 50% of all experts in Ukraine. So I feel myself like responsible for these to represent our country internationally. And also, to get their money to the country. This is something that’s really important that then translates to salary translates to new job, which also distract people from the events and also translates to taxes, which is

all off the wire. And how have you found the customers the customer, we actually talked a bit about emailing all the different customers who must be in the customer action. There’s been a lot of support. I know for Ukraine, Ukrainians, the whole country, what’s what have you what’s been your experience from inside the country? It’s interesting. That’s like 99% of our clients stayed with us, despite the war. So we had only one client whose security policies didn’t allow them to work with Ukraine. So it was a financial product and supply could understand them. Definitely. We also had clients who donated to Ukrainian army. We also had clients who supported us with referrals. We had clients who supported us these kind words, had clients who hosted the Ukrainians in their apartments, like in Belgium, in Germany. So it all means a lot. And I always pleased to hear how people helping because then I can tell it to my friends, my employees, and it also gets a certain warm feeling that we are having a lot of partner for worldwide. It’s gives this energy that all of us need right now. Yeah, it’s fantastic to hear. And I suppose from a business point of view, and what are you seeing I needed a lot of work in terms of system design, you do a lot of work in terms of the crypto space and you did that you did stuff in financial services, you’ve done stuff in terms of like different websites. What do you see in this sort of themes? I know sort of like some of the crypto stuff has fallen off a little bit. But what what are the themes that you’ve been being asked to look at?

My company was founded initially as a design studio. So my friends with are also my partner, we used to work in agencies back in the days, and we were doing a lot of digital campaigns for companies, even for global ones who happen to have Ukrainian offices and presents, including social media, websites, applications, and certain points, or both of us moved to it when product development. And that’s how our criteria Initiative is a core idea to create really great user experience. So this is something that we still have is one of our core services. So we know how to conduct initial product discoveries, you know, how to help companies to shape the product, how to go through Google design sprints to validate the idea. But I must admit that right now we are even though we have really strong design departments, the core, the majority of revenues, we still get from product development. So this is something that we also do really well. And unlike many IT companies who usually do only like body shopping, we do all kinds of additional design services and including the work that really helps to take the products from zero to hero. And by that I mean that fit

Do this value based approach when we assemble a team, not just like separate engineers, definitely, it’s not that all companies needed still, I would say that’s 75% of quality market is all about staff augmentation. But I would say that blends both models in a clever way. So that’s something that I say when people come to us, so they initially, if it’s an intrapreneur, who wants to launch a startup, so usually, it’s an industry expert. For example, in accounting, you understand the markets from all the angles, and he wants to build certain software’s that would ease life of people like him or for certain industry. And he comes to us and we blend his knowledge with our resource that we do on the customer on the industry on competitors, and use our engineering knowledge and be blended into the plan of the product, and then eventually execution. So that’s how we say it’s partially consulting, partially certain execution. And sometimes you also help existing companies who have

a need to do something for their business, it could be additional revenue stream, or digitalization, we could do also like a separate team is a plug and play treatment so quick, without need to record both kinds of things. There’s been tremendous development and all things all things digital the technology over the last 2030 years, but have you seen it changed since the pandemic as a digitalization space change? And are people asking for the same things? Are they asking for different things? That’s a really interesting question. I have my view on this primarily, because there are a lot of tools that I consider to be that like, local with or zero code. So you can do a lot using them, depending on what you should do with them. But it really depends what exactly you want to achieve. So if it’s a small company that really needs a certain amount, like the best sites for for them, or they need certain support. So like in digital formats, you they can use a lot of tools to achieve it. But if you want to create a solution, that would be like an additional revenue stream, or for example, like an asset for the company making more available and expensive, then definitely you should take a look more into custom software development, or sometimes it’s a blend of two. So you can use both, if you’re talking about digitalization so but there are a lot of businesses whose processes are too unique to just

give them a box solution and hope that everything will go fine, you will need to pay for licences, you will need to add new features you won’t know like 70% of features that are already there. So it’s all about risk. Now figuring out what is the path, you should take creating something from out of the box solution, creating something as a blend of two, or creating something that is custom built, depending on your size, maturity, those kinds of things. So to speak to the custom build piece come a lot of that comes down to the business analysis skills to really understand your building exactly what’s needed, rather than something that’s more generic. Yeah, absolutely part of them. Some of the team composition we have on the project. So you always have business analysts, it is an essential person who usually works in parallel with software architect and product designer, and they investigate the business and what could be done and enhanced from different angles and together before full picture. So kinda disrupt people forms together with Project Manager, like for them a product owner in a way who might look together with the client on different sides of solutions. And so what would make more sense for particular use case? Yeah, you can, you can see that. And then I wanted to pick your brains around UX and UX design, right? So that’s been moving forward, and you’ve seen it go from getting things getting more complex, almost all forms online, then you’ve gone through this source, I think, particularly through the smartphone age where everything’s become simpler. And more things are happening in the background. Where do you see UX design taking us? We’ve definitely gone through a simplification kind of phase as an expert, and as into, like, what works and what works for employees. But also, then what’s will works for external customers as well. And what are your tips on that?

There is no silver bullet for all audiences. Definitely. But I’m pretty sure you understand that yourself. So for example, when we do UX design, we always try to understand how we can make the biggest impact with the end customer. So that’s why we even call yourself like customer centric digital engineering. So it’s the customer comes first. Definitely. And simplification always makes sense. But sometimes it’s hard to achieve it primarily in b2b software. So you can make it really simple because there are a lot of things you need to include. And it’s not that you build like a b2c banking application or like in Ukraine, we have

a product called mono, which you can do almost anything in a couple of clicks.

But still, they’re not separate that performance in b2b segments. So because you need a lot of things upon it, just because because of the complexity, I’ll come to that city and how many use cases and how many Euros there could be. So this case, there’s always a question or if you’re doing it to be part one product, or B to B to C, for example. And that then leads to certain solutions that would make life of M customer easier it is but the same time, save the all the features you would like to include inside. But so you get to the right, I guess that the right now or steal their fashion, I would say in UX design is all about initial exercise that you can conduct with the product team and the client, to find out what would be the best way to create something and validate it before investing in development. Because once you get to developments, each round of edits would cost you a lot of money. So what we try to convince our clients to investigate the topic deeply. And it’s definitely takes time it takes the money. But eventually you will see a clearer picture invested as early as possible. So we always encourage our clients to do it. We have clients, for example, in USA, credit union, and they wanted to create a solution but didn’t know how to approach onboarding, which is the bane for any financial product. And we’re doing a lot of testing with real customers to make sure we have the most easy to use thing before long before there were a lot of out of the box KYC, AML, AML products. So it’s all about initial work that includes design thinking, Google design sprints, and

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things that you can do to form a proper vision. And one of the challenges that I’ve always seen is, where’s the balance between creating a system that fits around a process, particularly complex process versus creating a maybe a simpler system that you then actually simplify your process? Which might be a good thing to do from a business point of view? How do you how do you manage that balance with clients? And or how to clients manage that balance? Because sometimes you can make things a lot easier to code, potentially, by making the actual process a little bit simpler, which, which might save a lot of money and time in terms of doing that. But if it’s the only the right thing to do,

yes, but, you know, it really depends if the company is ready to change their processes. So I can say, for example, from my own standpoint, so we have some processes that are sometimes like rusty, so you still need to adapt them before applying like a new tool, for example, for accounting, and we’re currently trying to understand what tool would bring us most flexibility in assembling resources in HR and management, because our business is all about people and all about understanding what kind of utilisation we have, and make sure that people don’t burn out. And we can apply it all. But the tool definitely would squeeze your processes in Gestalt and

model, which not often suits your style, or your culture, for example. So this I think, are similar for all of our clients. So the definitely, it makes sense to create something as simple as possible and see how it goes. And then if it makes sense, you can just understand the game, I can do step by step from great of my own processes internally. And also, consequently upgrades a certain tool that some makes as a life organisation better if it’s an internal tool. And same goes for

external software that we create. Yeah, so it sounds like there’s a real balance. So you got to think everything through, right. It’s a practice book, and I know it’s still more or less like, at least how I think I sound more or less obvious. But yeah, this common sense something that you still sync with each new case. So you’re okay, this is this makes sense. Because just how usually, products are made. Yeah, I certainly taken that away in terms of like, common sense, being practical, being flexible. Those are all things that that definitely seem to have come through for in terms of this conversation. And you guys at least anyway, so Trump, Trump. Yeah, yeah. So what So what happens from here on in what’s what’s your what’s your outlook for the future even? Both either both either locally, but then also from an archive point of view. What’s your view over the next the next little while What are you looking at? Right now? I think that whole IT sector depends on the economic crisis that is happening. I would say it started last summer around July so we all developed

less demand, which was really high and after countries started to pour money, people after the pandemic started so right now we all see the layoffs in you’ll see how AI Elsa, make it stepping and there’s a new bubble that’s growing out there. Alright, news in the morning voluntary so

It has a similar form like combitcoin has certain points. So

I guess that’s Ross right now, we tried to focus on like this consulting in design, primarily because we could deliver a value quick on to the customer show what we are capable of and then go for some engineering. And it’s just something that we’ve been doing for a while. And I still believe it’s important and clients value, this capability of ours. Secondly, what we see that there are certain consolidation, the market, there’s a lot of m&a activity in right now, even in Ukraine, and we also get interest. So we understand try to understand what if it makes sense to become part of a bigger group, and have a strategic partner something that’s we as a company considering, and we also anticipate the next year, so primarily because they’re going to be difficult having, which should be a good momentum for all crypto, we also see that some of some of our clients still, that’s like Gartner anticipates some kind of rebound for US financial system and economy around

July or to October. So we also think that next year will be better generally in a company is going to invest more, because right now, less startups are looking out for obvious reasons. And so we try to be practice as much as possible. And we also invest right now more in the marketing activities. So SEO optimization of the websites, case studies, and everything that helps to establish a more reliable

image of the company. So these are the priorities to have right now. And general vision on the things, you have to believe that there’s even with some of the economic challenges out there still gonna be investment in like, how do we make things more efficient, there’s been so much digital adoption, all of those digital processes, they all need supporting even the low code needs supporting with proper code sitting in the back. You guys have to be at the centre of that? I would think so. Yes. So what we think is going to happen with all the AI tools right now that they’re definitely gonna ease their lope like profile work. So and I mean, like landing pages would be done a lot quicker, some kind of simple applications will be done a lot quicker. So there are a lot of automatization tools out of the box, like that year, and similarly have a client in RPA business right now. So definitely, it’s gonna make certain things quicker. But I suppose that such things for example, like Metaverse, and like Apple gonna launch their like headsets, virtual reality, is gonna make a bigger push to think that in the past, were really hard to make. And right now, that give me a bit easier. So more company is going to do this complex stuff. And either style will be just covered by, I would say freelancers, or those who can do this, some kind of subscription model, and it’s gonna consolidate the market in certain ways. But at the same time, yes. So even as I was mentioning this optimization tool, or still needs, like our help, and certainly, we still going to have business, but it’s not clear how it’s gonna influence the overall duration of the project and how we’re going to rearrange in terms of amount of people in the company and so on. So for budget gonna see, at one point, yeah, yeah, you just couldn’t believe how much things have changed in the last in the last five years, the last 10 years, or even just in terms of our conversation here, even just in the last year, it’s just been, it’s been dramatic. And I just, I suppose I might, my hope is things settled down a little bit anyway. So as much as anything, so we get back to a little bit more like normality. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So the changes are so quick that it’s hard to keep up. Like, especially with AI, if you open LinkedIn, even I post things about the AI even though my company happened on the legs, two or three projects with this part of like digital industry, but we investigate it and try to understand how it’s going to involve because you need to at least be on the edge of the news to understand the trends and understand the trends and you can keep up with them in certain ways. Yep. Cause thanks very much for making the time to chat to me and give me a fantastic insight into what’s going on there. But also a lot to learn in terms of what you’ve learned over the last year. And also what you’re doing and I know we’re going to are going to put some of the material in light links into archives in the links below, below below this at least anyway, so people can go and have a look if they want to. And you guys are still busy, which is just a it’s fantastic. And so I wish you your family, friends, employees, everyone the best really and just hopefully, hopefully things improve reading.

Thank you very much. So it was a pleasure really great questions. So something that was a good semi is thinking about things that happens about things that’s going to happen and what journey I had together with my team and I appreciate the dialogue so and also hope that this is gonna end the war soon and thanks for watching.

Around the world and Ukraine there’ll be a lot of like will be peaceful and prosperous and digital yeah absolutely thanks very much yeah thank you too

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